Some Future Day

Marc Beckman [00:00:08]:

Are you aware that Gazans have been risking their lives to tell their personal stories for years? They told

Joseph Braude [00:00:17]:

Harrowing, heartbreaking stories of life under Hamas rule. Stories of, shakedowns of local merchants, Forced repression of women and their most basic personal rights.

Marc Beckman [00:00:30]:

Joseph Braude is the brave founder of the Center For Peace Communications? Joseph has created the extraordinary investigative audio series Voices from Gaza. He has been smuggling anonymous audio from inside the Gazan territory across the globe for over 18 months, Sharing unreported accounts of young Gazans barricading areas from Hamas to prevent their being used as human shields. Joseph, thank you for being my guest and sharing these incredible stories of human flight, resilience, and desolation. Sometimes technology doesn't work. Sometimes technology isn't available. This episode of some future day covers a very serious topic. The recent terrorist attack on Israel and the ensuing war? Innocents have been victimized and murdered. Humanity's dark side is exposed? On October 7th, during a major Jewish holiday in Shabbat, Hamas terrorists breached Israel's highly protected border? Israel's complex monitoring infrastructure of drones, cameras, sophisticated sensors, remote operated machine guns, and cyber spying was catastrophically insufficient as Hamas worked around and overwhelmed it? Israel's $1,000,000,000 smart wall, the iron wall, its security barrier on Gaza failed? Is this a case of technological hubris? How could Israel's high-tech superiority fail to its low tech adversary? Hamas used bulldozers and hang gliders to illegally cross into Israel? It was a huge assault.

Marc Beckman [00:02:25]:

According to multiple news outlets, including The Times of Israel, terrorists attacked 22 locations outside of the Gaza Strip, and 10,000 rockets have been fired at Israel since October 7th. It is estimated 1200 people died from the terrorist attacks. 240 people were taken hostage, Including a 9 month old Israeli infant, one of 32 children, these staggering figures are the result of the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust? According to the Washington Post, more than 11,000 people have been killed in Gaza since October 7th. Roughly 40% of them, children. 2 separate sources briefed US intelligence that a small cell of Hamas operatives Plan the deadly surprise attack on Israel by communicating via a network of hardwired phones built into Gaza's tunnels For over 2 years according to CNN, the sources said the subterranean phone connections allowed its operators to communicate secretly and avoid Israeli intelligence? Above ground today, Gazans maintain mobile and Internet services. The Poletel Group, a Palestinian company that is a major provider in the region, said the landline mobile and Internet services were gradually being restored in the Gaza Strip as its technical teams worked to address the damage to the internal network infrastructure under challenging Conditions. Other tech related topics surrounding this situation include access to satellite service and perhaps the use of cryptocurrency by Hamas? But for today's episode, we simply examine audio recordings. The following is a mash up from voices from Gaza.

Marc Beckman [00:04:22]:

I will translate the actual testimonies of the Gazans Between October 18th and October 28th, after the war commenced. At this time, as a person living in the prison that is Gaza, my prime immediate enemy is Hamas, not the occupation. I have no house, no life, nothing. We're condemned to suffer because of this stupid organization. Who made us live in poverty in Gaza? Not the Jews. Hamas. Because of the events we saw on October 7th, the world changed its view of the Gaza Strip. Everybody came to believe we're terrorists.

Marc Beckman [00:05:02]:

Who cut people's heads off comparing us with ISIS? A lot of people suffer from this. To be candid, Hamas has utterly wrecked the Palestinian people. I hope our voice will reach the outside world. Joseph, welcome to some future day. It's It's really an honor to have you as a guest.

Joseph Braude [00:05:24]:

Thank you.

Marc Beckman [00:05:26]:

The Center For Peace Communications is Really an incredible organization. You are the founder and its president. Can you take a minute just to give our audience, an idea as to what the Center For Peace Communications does, your mission, and how you're impacting people's lives around the planet?

Joseph Braude [00:05:49]:

Well, the CP Center For Peace Communications is focused on cultural change, And its center of gravity is the Middle East and North Africa. And it is at the core about enabling Reformist liberal forces in the region to do things they've always wanted to do but lacked the tools, The platform and the international network to do it. And this is especially important with the so called axis of resistance states, countries like Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, where people have had more than a taste of life under these nihilistic ideologies And they want a different future. But not only have they been silenced but those who rule them Have been very effective in monopolizing the narrative of what's going on in these countries and pretending to speak on behalf of the people they rule? The Center For Peace Communications helps These people realize their aspirations by connecting with the outside world, partnering with like minded actors in other countries, all for the sake of building a better future.

Marc Beckman [00:07:13]:

So Joseph, from a from a like a macro level, just to Start at a higher level before we drill it down. These regions, how do you get to the individuals that you feel or perhaps brave enough to tell their stories or to, actually listen to your content? How do you find these people and where are they exactly?

Joseph Braude [00:07:41]:

My colleagues and I have been working in the Middle East and North Africa For the most part, in terms of our staff, all of our professional lives. And so building human networks is something that we do both professionally and personally, these are our friends, and these are people who come to our weddings We live our lives with them together. It's sort of a trajectory of trust building and friendship and so on. To the larger question of how you expand that network though, when you, learn the language that is spoken in the area and, spend time there looking for people who want positive change? It isn't hard to find them at all. And what you find is they have been looking for you. They have been waiting for someone to come around and, and ask how the world can lend a hand? So once if you are prepared to breach the language barrier and the cultural barriers and put the time into it? It is not hard to build up A human network of very brave people who want to, challenge the extremist forces that dominate?

Marc Beckman [00:09:05]:

So speaking about you personally, have you been on the ground in, in most of these regions? Like, where where have you been, Joseph? Like, where's your personal where are your personal relationships?

Joseph Braude [00:09:18]:

Yes. I've, Lived, worked, studied in most countries in the Middle East and North Africa. These include, nearly every Arab country as well as Iran where I was a graduate Student at the University of Tehran, that's when I was studying Persian, in graduate school, and Israel.

Marc Beckman [00:09:41]:

And Do you find again, generally speaking, that these individuals within your network, come from a certain type of background? Ground, like let's look at like business sectors, for example. Are these people that are professionals, lawyers, doctors, people that are perhaps academics or does it reach beyond, the professions?

Joseph Braude [00:10:09]:

Well, first of all, you can find these voices and actors in Any profession, including religious leadership, in other words, we conventionally think of clerics in the region as people who are Engines of extremist indoctrination and for good reason. And yet even in Islamic seminaries there are Growing voices, in some cases supported by various states that are promoting a tolerant alternative interpretation of religion to the one that's been pushed on these populations for so long? I'll say in terms of professions that You can, well, you can find them anywhere. Some of the most interesting opportunities to promote change are with people in the media profession Because, first of all, media is a tool of, and a sort of an engine of cultural change in any society. And second, because it tends to be a magnet for creative, out of the box thinkers. So we have, one of my books is called Broadcasting Change, Arabic Media as a Catalyst for Liberalism, because it talks about the many centers of liberal transformative elements that are broadcasting, writing, Not only in journalism but also in in the entertainment field, where they believe that entertainment media is a tool of change. So that's, Very prominent in our minds.

Marc Beckman [00:11:46]:

But media also, from the research that I did, Joseph, it seems like people in media also are at high risk? It seems in certain territories that you're describing right now, the government controls the media? In fact, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Hamas controls the media in Gaza and, if the reporters or the broadcasters are not providing statements or video footage of exactly that of which the, controlling government wants? Their lives are at risk and their families and friends lives are at risks? And so so how do you get over that that hurdle? And what have you encountered as it relates to people in the media anywhere on the planet?

Joseph Braude [00:12:37]:

Indeed, as you said, in Gaza, Hamas dominates media. It, first of all, only allows Arabic language media that is supportive of its ideology and agenda to print and broadcast from there. And it intimidates foreign media because anyone who takes an interest, even from an international wire service and so on, In reporting from Gaza on local descent to Hamas authority will be at least deported. And so it is very effective in enforcing a communications blockade on the Gaza Strip. One of the reasons we launched Whispering Gaza was to help Palestinians overcome that blockade. But what I was referring to earlier is other portions of the region where media has been granted a certain amount of license Often because the tolerance agenda is consistent with that of the government, so for example, the UAE Has been investing a lot in promoting tolerance within its borders and beyond. And so it allows, liberals to flex some of their Inclinations, not all of them, right? This is not about promoting democracy per se, but certainly promoting some of the values That are among the underpinnings of good governance, and

Marc Beckman [00:14:09]:

at some point perhaps democracy. So Joseph, you mentioned Whispered in Gaza. This is a project that I thought was super compelling. Can you tell the audience a little bit about what Whispered in Gaza is and when it was produced, and And then we can build on top of that theme a little bit. As I mentioned

Joseph Braude [00:14:32]:

earlier, if you want to find voices, that are supportive of of peace and transformative change and development, the best place to look Is, countries that are dominated by Iran and its proxies because they're the ones who know most viscerally the misery of life under that ideology and want something different? Gaza is a place where in 2019 a 1000, young people braved gunfire and prison to demonstrate against Hamas, for the sake of having a better life. That protest was brutally suppressed and not a lot of attention was paid to it By the outside world. So these people felt that they had taken an enormous risk but they were not being heard. We wanted to find a different way to amplify or platform those voices. And so what we began to do last year was to interview Gazans inside the Strip about their lives, their travails, their aspirations? Doing so for the purpose of broadcasting their voices to an international audience and promising anonymity to the interviewees? Because that is the only way that they can safely communicate their message and tell their stories. They told Harrowing, heartbreaking stories of life under Hamas rule. Stories of shakedowns of local merchants, Forced repression of women and their most basic personal rights, what it is that leads so many youth to flee I see using organized crime cartels to attempt to smuggle themselves and often not surviving the trip. And of course, what it was that motivated so many people to demonstrate against Hamas and how they feel now that that demonstration had failed.

Joseph Braude [00:16:39]:

What we did with these voices was to bring together a team of animators, illustrators, and musicians To creatively depict the stories they told and after making some technical sort of alterations To the voice recording so that it was not easy to identify, who the speaker was, We turned their testimony into a series of 25 animated videos called whispered in Gaza, Whispered because you can't say it out loud. We released them in 7 languages in Including, of course, the original Arabic through Al Arabiya, one of the largest news outlets in the Middle East, as well as, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Farsi for Iranian consumption, and other languages. And, Experts in the field, Palestinians, Jordanians, Israelis, and European and American policy voices, even Iranians, who found this very interesting and published a monograph, alongside Whispering Gaza called A Platform for Silenced Voices. We released that at the beginning of this year. Of course, it drew enormous interest At the time, it had a viewership of 7,000,000 globally. But since the tragedy of October 7th and the war that is unfolding in Gaza? It's interest in Whispering Gaza has grown and we were asked also by a lot of friends and colleagues to create a new series, which we are now doing in partnership with the Free Press?

Marc Beckman [00:18:26]:

The following is a mash up from Whispered in Gaza? Again, I will translate the actual testimony of the Gazans. This testimony all comes Before October 7th, before the war started. There's a full stereotype that Palestinians in Gaza love rockets and wars? The wars that happen in Gaza are waged by the Hamas government for political aims that serve them alone? If you're a Gazan citizen who opposes war and says, I don't want war, you're branded a traitor. It's forbidden to say you don't want war. They exploit us under the pretext of resistance. Consider the wars that happened in 08, 12, 14, and 20. They made a profit out of it, and only the people suffered. Whenever there is a war and when they get more aid money, They're the ones who benefit and we get nothing.

Marc Beckman [00:19:28]:

So you know obviously the free press gives you an impressive platform, and that's great, I think it's fantastic, but I'm just curious, like, from a tech perspective, when you, pre October 7th, met with these individuals and recorded their stories, was that done in person and were there particular places on the ground? Because obviously I would imagine they were still fearful of, being caught by the Hamas government if they were participating? So how did you protect not just their identity from a post production and distribution perspective, but how did you protect them during the recording process before the war?

Joseph Braude [00:20:16]:

Well, the prime our prime directive of, making good on our commitment to protect their identities Leads us, understandably, to be thoughtful about how we describe or characterize the mechanics of this. But what I'll say about the mechanics is in an interconnected world, there are so many different technologies and platforms and techniques that can be used to overcome barriers in movement and communication? That's not really the problem. The problem is building trust. That's the real currency and technology that allows one to to breach, whatever barriers you could imagine? And so it's about having a network of colleagues who are committed to this. It's about getting good advice about the best way to do it and figuring out the best way to manage a risk and and doing it? Now, if

Marc Beckman [00:21:14]:

you move after October 7th, did the amount of participants in Gaza Shrink a bit? Like what happened as it relates to, you know, the people willing to tell their stories? Because I know that in voices from Gaza, the work that you're doing with the free press and and Barry Weiss, you've had some recordings come out just as recently as 2 weeks ago? But are As

Joseph Braude [00:21:39]:

recently as yesterday.

Marc Beckman [00:21:41]:

And Oh, yesterday.

Joseph Braude [00:21:42]:

A new one coming out today. We're we're releasing them, Several times each week and we're doing the interviews on a daily basis.

Marc Beckman [00:21:49]:

Has the quantity of people that want to participate gotten a little tighter out of fear?

Joseph Braude [00:21:56]:

No, the quantity of people has grown because first of all Whispering Gaza It was viewed, it had 750,000 views inside Gaza. Oh, wow. So it really, The vast majority of people who are online, I would say, and active on social media have seen 1 or more whispering Gaza clips. And voices from Gaza is not only being viewed in English translation but also in Farsi, in Arabic, and so on? And so to your question, The minute people understand that, there's a way that they can say their piece To an international audience, safely, the number of people who wanna take us up on that only grows. So there's, You know, we have our own ways of doing outreach, but then there are also people who reach out to us.

Marc Beckman [00:22:54]:

How do you smuggle the audio out? Is it all sent through digital packets or is it physically sent?

Joseph Braude [00:23:00]:

Again, the question of logistics and all of these things Is one that relates to the commitment of confidentiality. And You know, it's a matter of anyone can, you know, through even a web search, recognize the many ways that people can communicate Discreetly with one another. There's, you know, new apps are being developed every day. Grids come up, grids come down, different things, you know, affect what choices one has to make, but the bottom line is where there is a will to connect, In this world, you can do it.

Marc Beckman [00:23:44]:

Joseph, is there still internet access in Gaza? Because I know that recently Elon Musk said that he was going to provide STARLINK, to these internationally recognized aid organizations in Gaza, like the United Nations and the World Health Organization? But, you know, for just average Gazans, can they still access the Internet and and, see what other people are saying and and share content?

Joseph Braude [00:24:09]:

The answer, depends on which part of Gaza, and it depends on what day of the week. Elon Musk made that statement after a period of 15 hours or more in which it seemed that the entire phone grid was down and nearly all Internet was down? It would seem that, the Israeli government had a reason for wanting it to be down, and then a decision was reached to reopen it again? We have seen, and actually this manifested in Afghanistan after September 11th when the US and NATO Went into Afghanistan, they bombed a lot of things. But they didn't bomb the phone grid For the simple reason that, if you bomb the phone grid, you lose the ability to listen to what anybody is Saying on the phone because there's no phone calls to be listened to. So it seems that there will continue to be ways to connect with the interior of Gaza.

Marc Beckman [00:25:12]:

So so you think the, Israeli military is surgically avoiding the telecommunications systems on the ground so that they can listen and and gain access to planning and knowledge from Hamas?

Joseph Braude [00:25:30]:

I had no window into those types, that type of decision making. But I do know that the grid is for the most part open.

Marc Beckman [00:25:41]:

I'm just taking a look now at some of the themes and storylines that came out of these conversations, these testimonies that you've secured? And I believe that There were some recordings where, Palestinians said that the civilians were not involved in the October 7th attack on the Israelis, am I am I correct? Did you get that that content from

Joseph Braude [00:26:10]:

Yes, the woman we spoke to, and this came out on the Free Press series Voices from Gaza, she was very angry that, Hamas having killed all these people in such brutal and horrific ways, babies, Women, elderly people, including even holocaust survivors, that they then Blame civilians on all of that, carnage. And in doing so, of course, compounded the dehumanization of Palestinians By suggesting that it was the population that did the worst work and presenting themselves, Havas, as if they were somehow the civilizing force. Now her testimony is not proof that there were no civilians involved. But it certainly speaks to a sensibility in Gaza of people who abhor, this type of violence? And blame Hamas for starting wars it can't win. Hiding in bunkers and leaving civilians to suffer the casualties, and living, Meanwhile, in the case of many of their leaders, in opulence in Turkey and Qatar, while the population suffers.

Marc Beckman [00:27:37]:

It's interesting that you mentioned that. I think I just read in the I could be mistaken from the source, but I think the Daily Mail just reported yesterday that about 4 Hamas leaders are living in Qatar and Turkey. They fly, in areas that they think are SAFE via private jet, including Russia by the way? And these leaders, literally have accumulated 1,000,000,000 of dollars. I think, a number of them have, north of $3,000,000,000 each, and meanwhile they're running all of the social services, media, and healthcare back in Gaza? So, what happens, when you talk about this woman who spoke out, what's happening on the ground? People must realize then that you have these leaders living you know, as billionaires in Qatar, in Turkey, but yet they're on the ground and they're seeing just, you know, death and destruction. Can they get those can they can they uprise? Do they have the power to do so? And what would happen according to some of the testimony that you have if they do try to protest?

Joseph Braude [00:28:46]:

So the 2019 anti Hamas street demonstrations, which I mentioned, brought about 1,000 people to the streets of Gaza, under the banner Bidna Naish, which means we want to live. That is a lot of people for a small area like Gaza. And of course, they paid a terrible price in prison, torture, collective punishment, punishment of their families, even Palestinians living in the US and and Europe were, in a sense, punished because anyone who expressed support for those protests on social media anywhere in the world would have their families punished back home? And yet, despite all of that, 4 years later in July of this year, on July 30th, there was a new wave of protests against Hamas. So the urge is there, the courage is there, but these people are also rational in understanding that they cannot, internally, topple Hamas? Hamas, and its ally, Islamic Jihad, Together monopolize, you know, weaponry in the strip. And their only hope before October 7th Was to somehow galvanize some kind of international solidarity and support

Marc Beckman [00:30:16]:

for their cause. So if these Hamas billionaire leaders are living in places like Qatar and Turkey and then, Hamas is underground, in in tunnels, in bunkers? Who's running things according to, the the the people that you've interviewed, who's running things above ground?

Joseph Braude [00:30:38]:

Again, the answer depends on where. It's clear that there's a trend of, Hamas authority getting weaker and weaker by the day. They are in hiding For the most part, and so there's, you know, a beginnings of a deterioration of, basic services and, Various aid groups that are being allowed into portions, particularly in the South, are attempting to fill that gap. And yet what's interesting is that the climate of fear of Hamas persists? People are still afraid to speak out. And the reason is actually, it may surprise you, after everything we're seeing, but The reason is that they don't, they still don't believe with confidence that Hamas is about to be brought down. For the simple reason that the last 4 wars ended with the truce and Hamas in power. And so they're, you know, they still, a lot a lot of Gazans still believe that when the dust settles, there's going to be some kind of a a truce and Hamas will return to governing authority? And, and so

Marc Beckman [00:31:59]:

that is what keeps them quiet. So, so let's talk about the implications on the region if that happens. Look, first, Hamas, there hasn't been an election in that area, in Gaza, since 2006, right? So they're sitting And they're not moving. But, to your point, like what if Hamas wins? There's a chance that Hamas can win. How would the other Arab nations in the region look at Israel and what happens to the civilians in Gaza that are hoping for the ouster of Hamas, what happens to their lives?

Joseph Braude [00:32:34]:

So we we actually released with the free press a clip in which someone responded to Pretty much that question about, how a ceasefire would affect Gazans. And the way he put it, I thought was Really interesting. He said, if this war ends in a truce, Then in 2 years, 1 or 2 years, will repeat the same scenario. And in those 2 years, we'll go backwards another 50 years. But meanwhile, I need 2 good years just to get back on my feet. So what he's saying is, It would be a tragedy for him for this war to end with the status quo anti, with Hamas in place because that is An unlivable, reality. It's it's been a generation of misery

Marc Beckman [00:33:28]:

for Gazans. Joseph, I I think it was this week, Hamas's representative in the United Kingdom, in Great Britain, came out and actually stated that they would continue to behave this way to Israel? They would want to essentially wipe Israel off the map and kill the Jews if there was a ceasefire, they would take that moment in time just to regroup and and start again. So my question to you is that, First of all, that I'm I'm accurate with that. Right? That was on the news.

Joseph Braude [00:34:01]:

Yes. That was Razi Ahmed, the Hamas spokesman.

Marc Beckman [00:34:05]:

Yes. But the point is People are are expressly stating, like people from Hamas, Hamas representatives are expressly stating out loud on an international level that even post ceasefire, they will continue to attack the Jews and the Israelis and that they'd like to Effectively Wipe Israel off the map. And they just said it this week in England.

Joseph Braude [00:34:30]:

That's right. And, they've been saying it for, Decades. And they've meant it all along.

Marc Beckman [00:34:38]:

So here's my question, Joseph. If that's the point, why do we western civilized people, quote unquote, listen to them saying this type of stuff all along and kind of ignore it? Like, it's almost as if it's not gonna happen, and then it just keeps happening. Why why do we behave this way?

Joseph Braude [00:34:59]:

Well, I guess there's, there are probably a number of reasons. One of them is, ultimately, I think a sort of Condescending attitude, that people don't really mean what they say, that Hamas could somehow be bought off through a system of economic and military incentives and disincentives, and and would be Sort of moderated because they need to take out the trash as some have said, that once they actually have an enclave to hold and administer, They'll wanna do a superb job at it, in order to accrue the esteem of their public. And yet, ideology matters, and their commitment to it has been consistent. And these sorts of, efforts to sort of tame an organization like this It just don't work. There isn't a precedent for for achieving that.

Marc Beckman [00:36:01]:

So do you think that there should be a ceasefire now?

Joseph Braude [00:36:06]:

You know, as you know, what what brings us together today is a project that has been about Enabling Gazans to explain what they want. And so we have been asking them that question. And their answer is that a ceasefire, a truce, essentially a deal cut between Israel and Hamas that allows Hamas to stay in in in place would be devastating for them? As one person put it, If Hamas ends up maintaining control, it means that in 2 years, they're gonna repeat the same scenario. And over those 2 years, it'll take all of us back 50 years. And meanwhile, I need 2 good years just to get back on my feet. So that is the the attitude. As horrible and horrifying and tragic as this war is, It will be more tragic if it ends with Hamas in place.

Marc Beckman [00:37:06]:

So all the money that flows into Hamas from the international community and beyond really isn't benefiting the Gazans that you've been interviewing?

Joseph Braude [00:37:16]:

We have published alongside the Whispered in Gaza series a lot of reportage, from the rights, from human rights community, from journalists and so on, the documents how Hamas, had stolen international aid, Denied it to its population, not only food and and basic supplies, But also health care services, which where there's preferential treatment to Hamas and their cronies. And so it's been a very, very clear trend. Enormous money, 1,000,000,000 of dollars have entered the strip from a combination of aid organizations And their Qatari and Iranian patrons. And it does not go to the population.

Marc Beckman [00:38:02]:

Yeah, I read a terrible, report, a 2021 study that said that 25% of disease in Gaza is spread from water pollution and that 12% of, death in young children in Gaza result because of those diseases? So if Hamas is receiving all of this money from all over the world. What are they doing with it at all? Is it really just what people are saying as far as like building, building bunkers and building rockets? Like where are the monies going if they can't even protect the people, the civilians?

Joseph Braude [00:38:42]:

So it's a combination of it's serving personal enrichment sort of goals and it's serving ideological goals. It's not one or the other. It's both. On the ideological side, this has been widely reported and now demonstrated. This vast network of, of Tunnels, a kind of a city underneath the Gaza Strip that is as large as the the territory of Gaza It's a costly enterprise. You have to you have to build this system. You have to fuel it. You have to Keep the lights on and you have to keep it aerated and so on.

Joseph Braude [00:39:22]:

I'm not a military expert but I certainly have read enough To indicate that their, you know, fighting capacities and the range of their missiles has grown considerably over the past 10 years and with it the costs, the associated costs. So all of that is on the ideological side of funding the logistics and material needs of the permanent war footing? But then on the personal side, you have outright theft of of, Hamas leaders and their families who want to live in opulence for the most part outside of Gaza While their people suffer.

Marc Beckman [00:40:10]:

Do you think that, Gazans are truly looking for a different way of life, an alternative government? Do they prefer economic development to war? Do they want to stay in Gaza after this entire thing ends?

Joseph Braude [00:40:31]:

Certainly. With regard to the last question, Do they wanna stay in Gaza? There is a tremendous outflow, or attempted outflow by Gazan youth, who will brave great peril and often death to leave the Strip by sea? And that has been going on for years. Of course, people want a better life and, as as this stalemate of 17 years has progressed. More and more young people have have tried to flee. It isn't easy to do so. The question of whether that tide would somehow be stemmed depends on whether Hamas remains in power or is ousted and of course, what comes after? And it's quite likely that if a concerted effort at reconstruction of the that rehabilitation of the population's capacities were committed to by Israel and its allies, then people would be interested in participating in it and benefiting from it? To the question of do Gazans Put economic development ahead of war. Certainly, there are quite a few polls that indicate that. And so, you know, just to give you a panoramic thing that among polls that happened over the past year in Gaza, One showed 73% of Gazans believing that Hamas institutions are corrupt.

Joseph Braude [00:42:06]:

And by the way, in a poll in which more than 60% of them said that they don't feel free to speak freely. So On the face of it, it would suggest that there were others who agreed with that but were afraid to say so even in an anonymous survey poll. You had 70% of Gazans saying that they would prefer that another element Essentially administer and govern the strip other than Hamas. In this case, the question was specifically about the only Alternative governing structure that has existed in Gaza in recent years, which is the Palestinian Authority. There's Certainly ample evidence that a lot of Gazans want a different future. There's also polling that You know, more readily reflects a militant extremist strand in Gaza. I don't want to get too much into the weeds of the different questions that are asked, the moments in which these polls are conducted and how they relate With war and truce, but suffice it to say there are a lot of people in Gaza who are pragmatic and oriented toward whatever system of living will enable them to live better lives? Even as there is a tremendous critical mass within Gaza that has been brainwashed by Hamas, it's now been a generation in power, that, you know, subscribes to the Hamas ideology?

Marc Beckman [00:43:43]:

Do you feel like the humanity is being lost in all of this, Joseph? Like, the young couple with a young child living in Gaza that has hopes and aspirations and dreams as a family, Is that all being lost in terrorism and war and geopolitical, the geopolitical landscape? Are are we really thinking as a as a global community about those those the civilians that just happened to have been, you know, born in that region of the world and and these are the circumstances that are upon them? One of

Joseph Braude [00:44:23]:

the reasons that we put together the Whispering Gaza project and put an emphasis on investing in a really great team of Animators and illustrators and musicians to depict the stories of Gaza that those voices told was that we wanted to Cho wanted people to experience the humanity of these people in a way that you really can't. Certainly, the Hamas interview that you described in which the spokesman Razi Hammad said that Given the chance they'll be slaughtering more Jews at their earliest possible convenience, is a specimen of of of content that certainly dehumanizes Because it shows, humanity at its worst. But when you are able to experience The daily life of Gazans who do not subscribe to that ideology and want a different future, That's the path to humanization, to perceiving and understanding these people as human beings. And so we feel it's very important for that reason alone, to stress that a whole lot of Gazans don't want to be ruled by Hamas And don't want any outcome to the current conflict that would leave Hamas in place. So

Marc Beckman [00:45:43]:

what's the United States' role in it? I know that's a massive question, but like, as it relates to just drilling down again to, to, you know, this young couple with a young child in Gaza, is there, is the US's role really to help protect and liberate of that family or is it to, protect its own interests in the Middle East? What are we really thinking about as, you know, as a nation right now when it comes down to the people in that area of the world?

Joseph Braude [00:46:16]:

Well, if it's a question of, what we are thinking or what we should be thinking, what I hope that, The US government does is to continue to support the campaign to end Hamas' rule in Gaza. And just as fervently invest and bring together other parties in the world that would Share in investing in the future of Gaza, in a viable post Hamas administration of Gaza that it's focused on reconstructing the country, I mean the territory, rebuilding it, investing in its human capacities, and making it a place that is livable again.

Marc Beckman [00:47:03]:

So you think that, a post Hamas Gaza, at least short term, would be an area that is governed and rebuilt by a collection of countries from the international community at large?

Joseph Braude [00:47:17]:

This is a very difficult task. It will be costly in in in human life as well as Treasure. If it has any hope, it will require that numerous countries become involved, including Arab countries, Western countries and Israel, but I think it's as important to end Hamas rule As it is to, deliver on a better alternative, on a better future for these people.

Marc Beckman [00:47:52]:

When you talk about other Arab nations, providing assistance post Hamas, it's interesting to me because it doesn't seem, like other Arab nations today are trying to assist again those individuals that our our Gazan, you know, the young family, the young couple with a young child, in getting them to safety? So other than, you know, providing them with arms and, you know, military weapons of war currently, why aren't the other Arab nations coming together? Like, you know, it's been very public. Egypt hasn't exactly opened its doors and and welcomed innocent civilians from Palestine in? Why aren't we seeing that? Initial Arab responses to the October 7th massacre

Joseph Braude [00:48:44]:

were, disappointing. Before the war actually, before Israel even began to respond, no Arab power condemned the Atrocities of October 7th, or at least explicitly condemned the Hamas Perpetrators of of those atrocities. So that was a moral failing. Where does it come from? Does it relate in part to Hamas's powerful media Cheery that is so effective in whipping up radical sentiment within Arab countries. It may be some of these Governments are afraid of their own populations. But, the question of whether Arab governments will step up In a post Hamas administration of Gaza in some way is one where the jury is out and I remain personally hopeful that Governments will contribute in different ways. It may include financial contributions, may include in some way participating in the security of, of the territory? It's it's really early to tell because remember, we still don't even know how this war will end in terms of Hamas's presence in Gaza?

Marc Beckman [00:50:05]:

Do you think the United States government today is capable of addressing this issue from a knowledgeable perspective as well as, unifying to to be effective?

Joseph Braude [00:50:20]:

Well, I'm obviously vested in believing that America is capable of, of doing, of committing to of generational challenge, or even many at the same time? But it depends on sustained public support, Both for, ending Hamas rule and oppression of Gazans and destruction of Israeli hopes and aspirations as well as committing to the reconstruction of the territory in a way that that safeguards, peace and a better life for these people?

Marc Beckman [00:51:00]:

I looked at a a recent, Paul, of Americans, Joseph, that broke down demographic profiles by age? And it seemed like the younger generations actually are supporting Hamas? And the older the individual becomes the less they support Hamas and the more they support Israel? The the poll was basically like, do you support Israel or do you support Hamas? Do you think the younger generation it was like I and I believe the poll I'd have to find it, but I think the poll, like, showed that more than 50% of the younger generation actually supports Hamas. Do you think they're looking at that as, Hamas is a terrorist group and we're supporting this terrorist group? Or are they thinking about, you know, that the individual civilians that happen to be born in a region of the world that's currently ruled by Hamas, Gaza? Like, do you think they they understand that younger demographic understands that they're supporting a terrorist organization? This reflects the success

Joseph Braude [00:52:07]:

that Hamas enjoys at monopolizing the narratives about what's happening in Gaza such that The young people you're referring to are apparently persuaded or buying Hamas's line that Hamas is the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are Hamas. What these young people will hopefully, If they want to dig a little deeper, come to recognize is that Gazans want Hamas out. That the world needs to choose between supporting Hamas and supporting the Palestinians whom Hamas oppresses?

Marc Beckman [00:52:44]:

1 It's antithetical to the other. They're irreconcilable. So from your perspective, like, what what should we be doing just as a people in general to to make that, distinction clear that the the

Joseph Braude [00:53:00]:

Palestinian versus Hamas? Well, we're doing our part by through the Whispering Gaza project and through our partnership with the Free Press Now, Voices from Gaza, to give a give a a platform to these voices, to Gazans who want to explain what life under Hamas' rule has been And why they want a different future and what that future looks like. So I feel that the first step is to enable those voices to be heard and to grapple with grapple with their implications? And then think about, the various formulations that are being uttered on the streets in protests or in policy deliberations and everything in between? And I should say it's a dual challenge. On the one hand, those who justify Hamas violence do need to choose between Supporting Hamas and supporting the Palestinians it oppresses. On the other hand, those who from a different standpoint conflate Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas as all one and the same should recognize that there are a whole lot of Gazans who want a different future And ask what can be done to empower them.

Marc Beckman [00:54:17]:

What we do, Joseph, is in every episode of Some Future Day, we use Some Future Day to start the beginning of a sentence and then the guest ends it in like a predictive type of way? So I wanted to, put this out to you. We'll make it, I think, broad and generalized, but in some future day, Individuals in Gaza will

Joseph Braude [00:54:42]:

avail themselves of the opportunity to Learn and teach tolerance to develop their own capacities and the the territory they live in And join hands with Israelis in, in co development and a future of partnership.

Marc Beckman [00:55:03]:

That would be beautiful. Joseph, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about that we didn't cover today?

Joseph Braude [00:55:10]:

Really, I think we've covered a lot. I'm very happy that, you know, you gave us gave me the space to to lay some of this out, and, Yeah. You know, happy to to cooperate with you in any way in sort of spreading the word.

Marc Beckman [00:55:27]:

I know your time is very important, So thank you so much for joining me today. For ongoing insights surrounding these important topics, you can join the conversation on my social media channels, including Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Marc Beckman? And to sign up for my newsletter on Substack, You can find me at markbeckman.substack.com. To make sure you don't miss a show, Be sure to subscribe to Some Future Day across all major platforms worldwide, including YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. Special thanks to New York University for producing some future day, and a big shout out to my producer extraordinaire, John Boomhofer, for being patient and always encouraging me to push through? Thanks a lot, John. Have a great

Joseph Braude [00:56:27]:

day.