Some Future Day

Marc: [00:00:00] The bravest person on the planet is Iranian. Her name is Ahu Darayi. Ahu is a student who stripped to her underwear on the streets of Iran after the Iranian Morality Police accosted her for not wearing a hijab. There is an honorific title for this kind of Iranian woman, Shirzan. Ahu is Shirzan, a lioness, a woman who protects herself, her family, friends, community and country.
At all costs, shirzan.
Nazee Moinian: And just the fact that she disrobed to protest the morality police is a sign of intelligence and bravery.
Marc: Iran has many shirzans, including my guest, Nazi Moynihan. Nazi was born in Iran, but fled with her family. She holds a Ph. [00:01:00] D. in Iranian studies with a sharp understanding of the nation's rich, rich history, plus its modern day leaders from the Shah through the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Nazi currently serves as a fellow at the Middle East Institute. speaks five languages and hosts various think tanks on this subject map. Could a feminist uprising topple Iran's theocracy? Is the Iranian regime on the verge of collapsing?
Nazee Moinian: The regime is afraid of half of its population that are trying to bring the regime down through civil disobedience and hoping that it will catch on a wave.
Marc: Nazi, thank you so much for joining me on this special episode of Some Future Day.
Thank you so much for joining me on Some Future [00:02:00] Day. How are you?
Nazee Moinian: Um, excellent. Thank you for asking.
Marc: Nazi, um, your world has, um, really evolved quite a bit from when you were a child. I know that you grew up in Iran and I'm curious, like culturally, not politically, but culturally, what was it like growing up in Iran?
Nazee Moinian: My childhood in Iran, um, was a magical childhood. Um, it's the Iran of 1970s, late 1960s to late 1970s, um, was the Haasian days of, um, of Iran. It was at the time where, uh, the country was in an upward swing, uh, the Shah was on a, um, strong footing with his mandates to rule. There was money coming in because of sale of oil.
The education was expanding, Iranians were socially mobile. Um, the average income was rising, literacy was rising, [00:03:00] media was, um, was also expanding. So, um, it was really a country that could have been, uh, not by my accounts, but by experts accounts that do economics, um, and have looked at Iran trajectory, could have been the next Japan or South Korea.
Um, the Shah had a vision to incorporate Iran into the international world, um, in a very big way, and, um, and the Iranian people were invited to be part of it, so, so, I, I can't tell you how, um, for lack of a better word, um, it was a huge party. All the time.
Marc: A huge party. When, when you say that, like, what do you mean exactly?
Nazee Moinian: Um, so imagine that, you know, Iran before the advent of the Pahlavi dynasty, um, it's ruled by Qajar dynasty, um, which they [00:04:00] had very incompetent kings. Um, the kings were more, um, more concerned with their own. Uh, enrichment with their own, um, pleasure, the harem was big, the state was weak, um, they were auctioning off industries of Iran, tobacco, custom, stamp, uh, whatever income they had to foreign governments.
Um, it was a poor country and, and the rate of literacy, the rate of literacy was low. Uh, so in comes the Han, which at the time, uh, was a military person and he organizes the coup ousts, the Alaska Jar Dynasty, and puts Iran, um, on this, on the trajectory of modernization. Um, so in 1925, when he's reigned, uh, the, uh, first.
Pahlavi King, um, Iran is this stagnant, dark, [00:05:00] almost desolate place that has wonderful potential, but none of that was realized under the Qajar dynasty. And he, uh, was determined to make Iran a modern country. So in the 15 to 16 years until his ouster in 1941, Iran does start to open up to, uh, Um, he, to become more European, the Americans were not, uh, that, um, that involved in the Iranian modernizing scheme.
And you know, that was the message that stayed with Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, the second Pahlavi, uh, Shah, the one that, uh, was ousted in 1979. And it became his obsession to make sure that his country is on par with the major industrial countries of the world. So, you can imagine when I say it was a party, I said for the lack of a better word, it's not a very political party.
Word to use, but [00:06:00] it was this sense that anything is possible.
Marc: There was an exuberance, right? I guess you're saying like the people were excited with regards to the idea of becoming economically prosperous. The idea of having individual freedom, embracing new technologies. I think I even heard at some point, uh, I reviewed an interview that you were talking.
Um, about where you were talking about I, Iran, the, I assume it was the second Shah then, um, connected with Israel and hired Israelis to help in and help with, uh, a certain type of technology or something along those lines. Exactly,
Nazee Moinian: exactly. The, there were, uh, there were so many Israelis in 1960s in Iran that the second most spoken language in a city in Iran was Hebrew.
So, the shopkeepers had to learn Hebrew, the teachers had to learn Hebrew because all these engineers and military advisors and agricultural engineers were imported to Iran by the invitation of the Shah so they could help Iran modernize, and they all spoke Hebrew, so, and they were welcomed by [00:07:00] people.
The friendship between Iran and Israel is something that's really understudied. And it was so important for us to have as a frame of reference that it's possible. We were there before this unnatural stage of animosity between Iran and Israel. Right now, not between Iran. I want to make a differentiation between the Islamic regime and Israel has to end because we have been there when we were natural allies and it worked both ways.
Both, both sides benefited.
Marc: That's so remarkable. I had no idea until this moment that, um, Hebrew was the second most used language in Iran ever. Not in Iran. That's mind blowing to me. In
Nazee Moinian: a city called Ghazni, which was, which was the hub of Israeli, um, uh, agriculture engineering. Not in Iran. The second most spoken language in Iran was, uh, was English.
Um, at the time of. Qajar dynasty when there was diplomatic relations with with France and France was a [00:08:00] major player it was French. First it was Farsi and then English.
Marc: That's really so fascinating to me. Truly, it is. Like, thank you for sharing that. So, you referenced the regime. So, I imagine that's like post Shah.
What are we talking about? 35 years of the current regime. Um, what's the transformation like from your perspective? Like, what was the government like? Like, let's get a little political now. How did the government work under the Shah's, um, ruler, ruling versus when we went into the current regime?
Nazee Moinian: So the Shah, um, took power in 1941 when his father was exiled, uh, by the British to Mauritius Island and then he died three years later in Johannesburg or, um, in, in South Africa.
And then, um, he was a young man. Um, he, he. He was a young man with huge ambitions because there are pictures of him going around the [00:09:00] countryside with his father. He was groomed to be the next, uh, king. So we can imagine, um, it's World War II. Um, the Allies are trying to win a war against Nazi Germany. Here is this very Western oriented.
He was, um, I think he was nine when he was sent to Switzerland and he was 15 when he came back to Adelaide. A boarding school called Les Rosiers. He spoke, the young Shah spoke French, uh, sometimes better than he spoke Farsi. Um, and he, he understood that in order for him to hold on to the monarchy, um, he had to play nice with the Allied powers and kind of help, um, the mobilization of World War II.
So Iran is sometimes called, uh, the bridge of turquoise. Because the land, the proper Iran was used as a [00:10:00] stage to, uh, send mobilize, um, troops and, uh, ammunition and whatever was needed for war efforts, um, towards Russia at the time. This, um, the, the Russians needed help and it was also occupied by the allied forces because they needed to have a buffer where they could counter the advancement of.
The Nazi regime and also launched their operation. So Iran was under occupation from 1941 to 1945. At the end of 1945, um, the Shah has a mandate to reign and to rule. Uh, there's a, it's a parliamentary monarchy. There's senators, uh, that get together to decide on major foreign policy initiatives. Oil was a big platform at the time, uh, oil was discovered in Iran by, uh, William Knox Darcy.
He was an Australian, uh, explorer and, uh, in 1908. So, uh, there was money coming [00:11:00] in from the oil, money coming in for, for oil. And then, um, the Shah understood that Iran has so much potential that it could act, um, as a broker between the Western civilization and, um, and the Middle East. And he set his sights high.
Uh, he was still very young at the time, and he didn't have, even though he had the mandate to rule and reign, he was, there was a lot of pushback from the old aristocracy, the remnants of the Qajar dynasty, the senators that were there were there that did not like his mandate. So, one thing that people don't know about the Shah of Iran, and even I didn't know about the Shah of Iran, he was a very, um, justice oriented, uh, monarch.
Uh, not only he would advocate for justice at home, but he would also go abroad, uh, for example at the United Nations, and talk about the disparity between [00:12:00] rich nations and poor nations, and kind of put the world at notice that this is not tenable. That at one point, rich nations need to step up and help the poor nations out of poverty because poverty brings extremism, and extremism brings instability, and the world is worse off for everyone else.
So this was the Shah of Iran until actually his passing. He really, truly believed to his core that we needed to have a justice based world order. And that started with rich countries. taking the time to make sure that the poor countries are taken care
Marc: of. I see. That's so interesting. Thank you for like going through that detailed explanation.
And then how did the transformation occur? How did the current regime control take power of Iran and, and actually like the people of Iran?
Nazee Moinian: Um, you know, Mark, this is a great [00:13:00] question and I'm not sure we still fully understand it. Uh, when I was growing up in Iran, again, it was the Hastin days of Iran, and, you know, it was a, um, secular country.
It had a strong faith based population. There were Shiites, but the Shiite faith was different. A personal matter, you know, the Shah was also a religious man. He believed in his religion. He had visions of the imams coming to his rescue that, you know, he fell from the horse and cracked his head open or he had a concussion and he had the vision that the imam came and told him, don't worry, you're going to live.
So he, but everything was very personal. Um, the mosques were regularly attended by people, but there was not an organized. So, that's Islamism, the way we saw it happen in 1978 and then it led to the Islamic Revolution. So, there are so many scholarships on that, of how [00:14:00] the revolution happened. But probably the catalyst was the White Revolution.
This is the word that the Shah of Iran used. He dubbed his reforms the White Revolution, which changed the makeup of the Iranian society. it gave. Freedom to Women, it had family laws reform where, um, the mothers, uh, in, in a, women got the right to vote, um, and, you know, the, the divorce laws were up, up, up, um, upturned.
Um, all of this kind of, not kind of, this actually, um, irked the Ayatollahs in Qom. Qom was the religious city in Iran. Um, For example, the Vatican of Iran, and foremost among them was Ayatollah Rehola Khomeini, who, um, did not believe in a mandate to emancipate women, to give them the right to vote, he thought it [00:15:00] will, um, upend the traditional family structure, so he railed against all of this, and he thought that going the way of Western liberal order will Um, Hurt Islam to a degree where it will kind of be, um, obsolete, um, in Iran.
And this is where it gets a little murky. So I, I truly believe that he also had a vignette against the Shah of Iran, uh, but he wrapped it in a language that we kind of hear now on the streets in New York, Paris. London in college encampments that the Shah of Iran is a colonizer. He's colonized the country.
Uh, he's a victimizer. He's an oppressor. Um, the narrative of victimizer versus victim, oppressor versus oppressed. All of this is what he used to rally the Iranian people. And eventually [00:16:00] that led to a, uh, invitation to Iranians to ask for the Shah. And installed in Islamic Caliphate.
Marc: So it's such a, that's so, again, it's like so fascinating to me.
I didn't realize that they were using that, that language. It's exactly what we're seeing here. And I imagine they were the minority as well at that point in time, right? The religious sect effectively moved the entire nation.
Nazee Moinian: It, it, it started. Yes, exactly. So, you know, what, if you had shown the picture of Khomeini in say, 1976, 1977, To my parents, they wouldn't know who this guy is.
Um, we had never heard of him. Um, we had never heard of an Islamic, Islamist movement. Um, that's a two pronged, um, story. Uh, we were Iranian Jews. We were in our own bubble, kind of, you know, we, we cared, we cared about the community. We cared about the monarchy and the synagogues [00:17:00] in Iran at the end of every high holiday or even a prayer on Saturdays.
We prayed for the health of the Shah of Iran. To us, monarchy was a symbol of stability, which is what the Jews around the world look for. It's when it gets unstable that they look for a scapegoat and Jews become the target. So, um, the mandate of monarchy was always part and parcel of our, uh, collective belief that this is what's best.
And we were not the only one. Iran had gone through 123 different monarchies. Since the ancient times, it was a permanently monarchical system until the Islamic revolution. So in a way, the Iranian people understood that a king may not be democratically elected system, but they also understood that it's part of the Iranian history.
Um, and they, they did pray for the [00:18:00] health of health and wealth and stability of the king. So when the Islamic movement came in, it was unbelievable to all of us, including my parents, my older siblings, that this man came in and is trying to upend this political order that has been in place for thousands of years.
Marc: And he did it. At that point in time, Nazi, how many, just curious, because you mentioned your background as a Jewish person and a Jewish community, how many Jews were actually in Iran when you were growing up at that time period? I guess when the Shah was still in place as the leader.
Nazee Moinian: So, outside of Israel, Iran had the largest population of Jews in the Middle East at the time.
Uh, anywhere from 000 Jews in Iran that had continuously lived there since the, the construction of the Second Temple by the order of Cyrus the Great. So again, if you asked an Iranian, um, are you a Jew or [00:19:00] are you an Iranian, you know, the answer would be, I'm an Iranian and I'm a Jew. So we never thought of the two as diametrically opposite of each other.
Uh, the, the The figures are much less now. Obviously, you know, all of us emigrated either to U. S., to Israel, um, right now it's about 15, 000 to 20, 000 Jews that have decided to stay and, um, at the time that I was growing up in Iran, we had synagogues, we had Jewish centers, Jewish restaurants, you know, we, it was life as normal as, as you can see today.
Um, the United States.
Marc: So it's interesting. So you go back to that time period in the, in the seventies and obviously there are still people living in Iran who grew up during that time period and saw this transition, right? From like Western influence, Western culture. You talk about the European influence and all.[00:20:00]
What do these people think about like Iranians today? What are they thinking? Um, from their perspective, like what happened to their world? Do they like the regime? Like, are they, are they, um, hopeless people that know what the past was like and maybe felt a little bit more free? And, you know, what is it, what is, what's the real true sentiment on the ground for people who lived under the Shah's rule and then transitioned so they saw both worlds?
Nazee Moinian: So, if you're talking about the Iranians that are still in Iran, um, that have stayed behind, uh, they've made a choice, uh, to stay because it's, it's the country they belong to and it's the language they're comfortable with and it's, their ancestors are buried in their cemeteries. They have made the best of it, Mark, you know, I, I, if we compare their life to our, um, our life in a secular Western democracy.
Um, obviously they don't have the freedoms we enjoy [00:21:00] here. We, you know, we see pictures on social media platforms of students that are forced to walk over the Israeli and American flag on the way to their classes in universities. And, interestingly enough, They walk around the flag. They don't step on the flags.
Marc: I've seen
Nazee Moinian: that. And it's goosebumps because that just shows that the Iranian people are moving opposite to, to the regime. Um, the regime has this obligerant foreign policy that I kind of put the origin of that to, to the presidency of Ahmadinejad, where he understood that being an enfant terrible of international relations and.
Denying the Holocaust, or, you know, uh, looking for the return of the Imam, the last amount to come and rescue the world would, would upend the international liberal world order and, and bring in an Islamic caliphate. All of that, uh, is something [00:22:00] that the Iranian people do not believe in. They reject that idea.
If you, um, look at, for example, surveys from Gaman Institute, it's G-A-M-A-A-N, if anybody wants to look it up. 80 percent of the people oppose this regime, 73 percent to 80 percent out of the 200, 000 that were asked.
Marc: 80%. So it's just like a, it's a, um, it's a harsh regime. It's a real dictatorship. Um,
Nazee Moinian: it's, it's an Islamic theocracy with a very, um, belligerent, uh, brutal domestic and foreign policy.
Marc: Well, it's interesting when you talk about a brutal foreign policy, um, there, it seems like they're very blatant now. I know just, um, recently, like within the past week or so, the United States Justice Department charged an Iranian asset, um, here in New York City with plotting to assassinate, um, now the president elect, [00:23:00] President Trump, but also other, um, U.
S. based, uh, citizens. Um, and I think that they're going into other areas, like I believe Germany as well had a similar, uh, situation. Um, why does the current regime seem to be so blatant? It doesn't matter where in the world they are, they'll just behave this way, um, whether it's within Iran or without.
Nazee Moinian: Um, first of all, isn't that unbelievable that the Islamic regime is trying to assassinate Americans on U.
S. soil, and look at the audacity, um, I was at a, um, conference where Douglas Murray spoke about this, and he asked the audience, there were a thousand people, he said, how dare, how dare the Islamic regime plots to assassinate Americans on U. S. soil? The former president, former secretary of state, former national security advisor, and Massiani Nijad, the Iranian activist, who's also a journalist, who's been [00:24:00] a thorn to the side of the regime.
It's the third attempt on her life, and all of that on US soil. I can't answer why, um, the regime operatives think they can do this and they can get away with it. I think, um, when Iran Not Iran. The Islamic regime has come to forking the road between reform and repression. Um, they've always picked up a knife.
They go, they double down, they go for the jugular. It's not at all a Tocquevillian system where you go after the hearts and minds of people. You, you go after more repression, making sure that your detractors are gone, that there's silence, that they're blinded. This is a regime that's bent on holding on to power and It acts out when it feels threatened.
Marc: Yeah, it's incredible to me. And the people, um, [00:25:00] in Iran, the critics of the regime, to me, as I know you and I touched on this previously, you taught me the word, um, shirazan, right? Um, the, the word shirazan, which I believe means lioness. Am I getting this correct? Very correct, yes. You know, these, these are the true brave people.
I mean, these are, in my mind, like this woman, I believe her name is Roya Zakari. It hasn't been confirmed from what I've been studying. Um, but I think this woman, Roya Zakari, is the most brave person on the planet. This is the Iranian woman that, um, we saw in the news recently. Um, again, Correct me if I'm, if my term of art is incorrect, but the Iranian morality police accosted this woman for not wearing a hijab.
And then she, um, in defiance, removed all of her clothing and roamed the streets in, you know, in essentially like her undergarments, her underwear. Um, and then since then [00:26:00] it's understood that she's been, you know, just disappeared.
Nazee Moinian: The video of that is shocking. I saw it the second it was. Put on the social platform?
Um, yes. I'm not sure about the name though, mark. He might wanna check on that name.
Marc: From my sources, what I've been reading, it's been, um, not reported yet, but do you have the actual name? I
Nazee Moinian: think it's called, she's called, uh, who? Yeah. Uh, who is, uh, gazelle. So, I mean, the name doesn't matter. It could be any sheers, any lioness in Iran.
And we have so many of 'em. And, uh, the regime is afraid of them. The regime is afraid of half of its population that are trying to, um, to bring the regime down through civil disobedience and hoping that it will catch on a wave, um, the way it did in, on September 16, 2022 when Massa Amini or Massa Jena Amini, the Kurdish, the young Kurdish girl, um, that, uh, went into [00:27:00] coma and died a few days later at the hands of the regime operatives.
Um, the whole world, um, understood that this is an inflection point where, um, the Islamic regime has showed its true colors. She was not part of any political movement. She had stepped off, uh, the train platform in Tehran from her city, Sapez, which is a Kurdish area, to go to a dentist and, uh, some random guy from morality police did not like the way she looked.
And, uh, beat her up, and she went into a coma and died. So, you know, either if it's Massa, Mini, Roya, Umu, Ahu, Daryoi, or the person you just mentioned, Iran is full of shirzans. It's full of women who are not afraid of speaking up, um, are not afraid to ask for their rights. Dr. Elizabeth Haas, CEO, LodgIQ, [00:28:00] Dr.
Elizabeth Haas, CEO, LodgIQ, Dr. Elizabeth Haas, CEO, Are there male counterparts? Are the Shirmats, the lions that protect the lionesses? But truly, the bravery of Iranian women has even astounded me. I considered my own mother a Shirzan. Actually, God bless her soul. That word, shirzad, is on her tombstone, both in Farsi and English, uh, because she was one of those women that, uh, as a Jewish woman, um, she went up to the synagogue, um, uh, platform and asked Iranian Jewish mothers to make sure their, their girls are educated, that they go to work.
And this is in 1940s in Iran. So, um, it's amazing how these women, um, are not afraid. And [00:29:00] I do believe that the next Iranian revolution is on the back of the Iranian women.
Marc: That's really amazing. So from your perspective, do you think Western nations are doing enough to support these Iranian women right now?
Nazee Moinian: Yes and no. Uh, I was very hopeful, um, in the aftermath of September 16, 2022, the woman life freedom, Zan Zendegi Ozedi, when, when there was this sentiment that, Um, here's what we talk about, here's our glimmer of hope to, um, change the makeup of Iran and the Middle East through the women of Iran, and let's support them, you know, and then there were these mass demonstrations in Paris, in New York, in Berlin, um, in almost 63 cities around the world where, um, the pictures of Maasai, meaning the, the painting Uh, People's Faces in Iranian Flags, [00:30:00] the, the, uh, the chanting of Women, Life, Freedom overtook, uh, many social gatherings and demonstrations, uh, for a couple of months and The song Barayeh, um, also won a Grammy, which kind of, um, summed up the struggles of Iranian people, um, for freedom.
Um, and I, I urged you, your listeners to listen to that song and read the lyrics because it's really moving. At the time, I thought this is it. This is how a, um, Revolution happens. It starts from within the country. It overtakes Iran's 31 provinces. It becomes a mandate for the rest of the world to follow through for the freedom of Iranian women.
But again, you know, um, the Islamic regime has the monopoly of violence. Um, the, the morality police, the Tehran police, [00:31:00] uh, the police in other provinces poured into the streets. But blinds it and names the population. Killed children. People disappeared. They'd never heard of. And people went back into their homes and started their fight against the regime from inside their homes.
But could we have done more? I think that's a question that needs to be answered by the Iranian people, but. From my end, I know that there are some things we never did. We never, um, allowed the people of Iran to express themselves freely by making sure that they have constant internet coverage because the regime shuts down the internet.
We never sent them star links so that they could actually access the rest of the world. We never cracked down on the mechanisms that Um, [00:32:00] interrupt the, the internet because many of Western companies have been selling, uh, tools that crack down on dissenters, you know, through internet. So the campaign of maximum support for Iranian people hasn't been fully implanted, implemented.
There is much more we can do.
Marc: Yeah, it's interesting, Nancy, that, um, you talk about technology, social media and the use thereof. Um, I remember back early on in the, you know, 2019 2020 period, um, a lot of women were from Iran, were very active with regards to blockchain technology, and it allowed for them to get their artwork into the hands of, Let's say westernized culture.
I mean here in New York City, I was getting a ton of this gorgeous artwork from these Iranian artists and they were sending it via NFT. And, um, it said a lot that they were trying to, um, I guess essentially [00:33:00] circumvent web 2 technology so they can directly not just create, um, artwork, but also get a new source of income.
Um, I thought that was really powerful. Going back to this woman though, that, that disrobed, Um, you had mentioned to me at some point that they would arrest her saying that she, um, they might arrest her and they've done this historically saying that she suffers of mental illness. Am I correct? Uh, yeah. I mean,
Nazee Moinian: that's, um, that's how they can discount her, her voice, her protest, her agency.
You know, when you say, um, somebody is suffering from mental illness, you absolve her of anything you do. Um. Because everything you do under the guise of mental illness is supposedly a sign of a sickness. So, uh, obviously she's not, she's, you know, just the fact that she disrobed to protest the morality police is a sign of intelligence and bravery.
It's opposite of mental [00:34:00] illness.
Marc: She's the most brave person on the planet. Hopefully she's still here today. I mean, there's no one as brave as this person.
Nazee Moinian: I agree. And, and, uh, again, it doesn't surprise me.
Marc: Now, so you know why I'm so sensitive to names these days? Like I think her name matters and and I'll tell you why I just this past Saturday I had the chance to meet a woman who was a hostage in Gaza and her husband is still a hostage in Gaza And we were talking about how like these communications from these different types of regimes and and, um, suppressive governments are, um, changing the narrative and dehumanizing individuals.
And I think that the more we lump together individuals as part of a collective or as part of a group, the less we have that emotional connection with them. So I would love to find out what this woman's actual name is, because I think we need to keep her, you know, [00:35:00] her, her name at the forefront, whatever that woman's name is, we need to get.
We need to get it right. She certainly deserves it. I'm ashamed that I don't know it.
Nazee Moinian: Her first name is Ahu, which again, which means gazelle. Um, Massieh Alinejad, the Iranian American activist, does a good job of, uh, putting their names, their faces, their activism, their stories on her, um, on her social platforms as she keeps their stories alive.
Uh, so does, uh, Purya Zarate, who's a, um, who's a TV personality now outside of Israel. Uh, you're right. Names matter, uh, because it, it gives them humanity. Uh, this is just not, uh, some ghost that appeared on our social platform and disrobed and protested. This is an actual person with a family, with parents, with siblings, probably children, uh, maybe not in her case, but most of the time.
Uh, we, we, we will know [00:36:00] much more about her, uh, hopefully when news comes out. I have no idea where she is. I don't think anyone knows. Uh, she was taken, uh, exactly at the time that she disrobed. She walked around, if you remember that video, for, for, for some time before she was
Marc: It seemed like forever.
Forever, back and forth, back and
Nazee Moinian: forth. Uh, again, you know, this is, um, this is what Shirzan is. The, the fearlessness, uh, with which she conducted herself, which we see often, uh, on the streets of Iran, which marks the Iranian women, which I'm used to, um, because again, I, I have a, I had a mom who, uh, in my opinion was a Shiazad.
This is where we need to be their voice. Make sure that, um, the Iranian [00:37:00] foreign policy is a correct foreign policy that, that, um, takes care of Iranians wishes and aspirations. The Iranian street wants to be in the western orbit. The Islamic regime doesn't. We need to make sure the first one is protected.
Marc: Yeah, and so it's, it's the Iranian foreign policy, but I think the American, um, foreign policy, I think it's fair to argue that perhaps the American foreign policy, as of late, has failed these shirzans and the Iranian people that you're talking about that are attracted to individual liberty and freedom.
I know that the United States Secretary of State, uh, Lincoln, um, has been saying as of late that Iran is just weeks away from producing the enriched material required for building a nuclear weapon. And yet, like the current regime, um, has just been super patient, right? They're just doing their thing. [00:38:00] And I think this patience that Khamenei has been displaying is working in his favor and in the favor of the regime.
Um, do you agree?
Nazee Moinian: I very much agree, and you said it exactly right, you know, it's strategic patience, they call it in foreign policy circles, it's the long view, which the Iranian regime, the Islamic regime is famous for, is known for, right? And it's, uh, something we don't have, you know, our, our, uh, focus changes every four years with, with presidential elections.
And our foreign policy as a result changes every four years. And the regime knows and exploits this handicap. And we are, um, we haven't done a good job at, um, forging a, an Iran strategy that speaks to the aspirations of Iranian people while countering the regime. [00:39:00] Israelis are on the cusp of doing so. I mean, so far it's been tactical successes, you know, and, and hopefully, hopefully it will, um, It will merge into a grand strategy with which counters Iran.
Uh, they've started doing that. Um, and I'm hoping with the incoming administration, we will be able to, uh, be more active on that front.
Marc: Well, it's interesting because Trump's, um, policy before was, Heavy with sanctions, peace through strength. Um, I'm not sure that his new policy, his forward looking policy has been clearly articulated, um, to date.
I did some research in advance of our discussion. Have you, have you seen anything from this new administration yet, as it relates to an Iran specific policy?
Nazee Moinian: Um, you know, I, I read the tea leaves, as you do, and probably everybody else who's interested in this topic. So far, President elect Trump's picks have all [00:40:00] been, uh, anti regime, pro Israel, pro Western civilization, I might add, picks.
And that, to me, is just lining up the peace through strength doctrine. It remains to be seen what these, uh, solid picks will do with respect to Iran, but I can't imagine going back to the Biden Harris administration time, where Um, our responses were always a little tepid, a little half hearted. I always said, um, in the circles that I, I sat down and, and talked, um, about Iranian foreign policy, that we shouldn't be the one, the Americans shouldn't be the one, that expressed their fear of escalation.
We shouldn't be the one to signal, we don't want escalation. We don't want a wider regional war. Uh, we, we caution, we, um, we want caution on, on all parties sides. [00:41:00] This should be the, this should be the words of the Islamic regime. They are the ones that need to be cautious. America is the superpower. America is the one that should show the rest of the world that their national security concern coincides with the protection of.
Western liberal values and liberty and freedom and the rest of the world should be unnoticed.
Marc: Well, there's no doubt. And I think Iran very quickly saw that the Biden administration was weak. And as a result, they, even, even for sanctions that are still existing, like the, the, um, issue with regards to oil, Iran took advantage of that right away and shipped, I understand more than a hundred billion dollars, uh, or, or created more than a hundred billion dollars worth of income, um, just for oil shipments to China.
alone. And that money was spread pretty far out with regards to the Iranian overseas policy to [00:42:00] go back, you know, in time in the conversation a little bit, because here's, here's what I pulled up. The money that they pulled in, Iran pulled in as a result of oil sales to China has been used, um, to fund anti Israel protests in the United States.
According to Avril Haine, the United States Director of National Intelligence, according to the United States Attorney General Merrick Garland, Iranian disinformation activity and cyber attacks have been, um, you know, really heightened as a result of having this additional funding. Iran is funding Hamas at the amount of 350 million dollars A year, according to, um, the Michigan representative, Huizinga.
That amounts to, by the way, 93 percent of its annual budget. Um, 700 million annually is going to fund Hezbollah, according to the United States State Department, and obviously, the Houthis also. So, um, you know, why are we so, why as a nation have we been so, so, um, [00:43:00] complacent with that type of activity? Why, why did we, Decide to look the other way.
Is that just purely American politics at play? And as a result, we have all of this chaos and death and destruction?
Nazee Moinian: Uh, well, thank you for those numbers. You know, I know about those numbers. I actually, my last article, which was printed in Jerusalem Post, talks exactly about this. Uh, but you know, it's still shocking when I hear you say it, even though I know it.
Uh, why are
Marc: I used your article?
Nazee Moinian: Oh, okay. Um, why are, yeah,
Marc: we'll post your article to this. If anybody wants to read it, we'll post it to this podcast too.
Nazee Moinian: Thank you. Why are we, uh, why are we allowing Iran to get away with what it's getting away with? You know, it's, uh, I have to dial the conversation back to the hostage crisis, uh, because I, I think.
Since the hostage crisis, uh, in 1980, um, where. 52 hostages [00:44:00] were taken for 444 days, American hostages. We have been, um, we have been stunned by Iran and it's like a sting that doesn't go away. You know, it, it's an open wound. We, we, we don't know what to do with this country. Well, now it's not actually, you know, to paraphrase Dr.
Kissinger, the late great Dr. Kissinger, Iran is either a cause or a country. And, you know, he said, Iran is acting like a revolutionary cause. But it's also a country with very engaged, very sophisticated, very forward looking people. So why are we letting the regime, the cause, to get away with what it's getting away with?
And except for this, this murkiness of our understanding of the Iranian politics, of what it's, what it's made up of, what its ultimate goal is. I don't have [00:45:00] another explanation. You know, I, when I was, um, when I was, uh, preparing for my, uh, dissertation, uh, Mark, I, I had to read Every single word, um, that was written by Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Revolution, attributed to him, said in a Friday sermon, every word.
And you can imagine that most of it is redundant. Most of it is, you know, is very antiquated stuff. But his ultimate objective was not about Iran at all. It was about. Having a platform where he could install the Islamic Revolution in other countries. First he started with Muslim secular countries that he thought were ruled by infidels.
Um, he did not agree with the secular, uh, Islamic country. He wanted every country that is Muslim to be ruled by theocracy. And then. It's spread to oppressed [00:46:00] countries, countries in the West that are oppressed by their own people. Again, the narratives of oppressor versus oppressed. So, his ultimate objective was to export the revolution.
I know we've heard this term before, but I want you to think about it. This is the revolution. Forty five years later, after the Islamic Revolution, we're grappling with the thoughts of Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic Revolution. This is what's happening by people who are pro Hamas, who are living in a Western democracy, are going to Columbia University, to Harvard University, and are pro Hamas, because Khomeini has bifurcated the worldview into oppressor versus oppressed.
If anyone in the CIA had read Khomeini's writings the way others, other Iran observers had read the Khomeini's writings, we would have had, we should have had some kind of strategy to stop him. You know, this is a guy who had the long [00:47:00] view, and the long view was to make sure that the world is anti hegemon, anti American, anti Western hegemony, pro Islamic caliphate, and 45 years later we're still dealing with it.
So, why don't we have an Iran strategy? Because I don't think we ever understood the regime. We never understood the revolution. We never understood the causes of the revolution. We never understood what Khomeini was all about. And it's high time for us, whether we understand it or not, to counter the threats from Tehran.
Marc: Nancy, who, who in history do you think, in American history, in American government, do you think understood the regime best?
Nazee Moinian: You know, it, it's, it's going to sound, uh, it, it, uh, I'm, I'm going to say President Elect Trump. I, I, um, it's
Marc: Wow. That's encouraging. It is.
Nazee Moinian: [00:48:00] It is. I think I've had personal conversations with him about, uh, the Islamic regime.
He understands. He has an instinctive ability to understand. The Islamic regime, and he understands that they need to be pushed back. Um, if I were to say another president that understood this well about the threat coming out of Tehran, it was President Reagan understanding the threat coming out of Moscow.
Um, I think the two of them are, uh, singularly important in countering the evil of the world. The evil at the time of President Reagan was the regime in Moscow. The evil at the time of President Reagan, uh, President Trump, Elect Trump. is the evil in Tehran. And both of them have international consequences, as we have seen already.
Marc: The Ayatollah Khomeini's vision of using a platform effectively out of Tehran [00:49:00] to, um, spread, um, you know, to, to create essentially this caliphate, right, is, um, pretty remarkable. And something that people don't talk about right now is Jordan. I guess some people in, in some circles are talking about it, but I think it's very interesting.
Like Jordan seems. Um, really tenuous right now where they have the biggest border with Israel and perhaps because they have a huge Palestinian, um, population, perhaps the influence from Iran can really go in and, and, uh, put the, um, royal family's, uh, kingdom at jeopardy there. And then, and then again, it will be another part of this like ring of fire, the circle of fire around Israel, which effectively is just a symbol of the West, right?
Nazee Moinian: That's it. That's it. Great observation, Mark. I'm glad you brought it up. Um, Jordan scares me. I'm sure it scares a lot of, uh, Middle East observers. Uh, it's, it's again, as you said, mostly Palestinian population, radicalized young men, [00:50:00] radicalized young women. Uh, the regime is an opportunistic regime in Iran.
It fills in and creates chaos. Um, uh, we don't call it axis of resistance. It's axis of ruin. It, it comes in and makes sure that, you know, the, the population is sufficiently radicalized and sufficiently ready to, uh, counter the ruling monarchy or, uh, whatever the system of governance is. So that's what the Tehran long view is, that, uh, it, Jordan is another front, and it's, it's, it's, It's enough for them to be able to create a ring of fire right now, um, between Lebanon and Syria and Iraq.
And Hamas, but, um, another front could be Jordan.
Marc: Nassir, what is it that the current administration has going on behind the scenes that's not so [00:51:00] obvious to everyone? Like, why are they empowering Iran in such a way? Like, just even now, I think, um, we're seeing some movement again at the United Nations, where our American ambassador is poised to, um, really, really, put her fist down on Israel.
Like I'm predicting that she is going to issue a decree in the United Nations Security Council that says that the United States, um, sees Israel's actions against the terrorist regime of Hamas, a proxy of Iran, as, uh, something that should be criminalized. And that would You know, totally hurt Israel. It'd be so easy for America to garner, um, compliance from the rest of the anti Semitic members of the United Nations.
Like why is, why is the United States so quick to do these things right now?
Nazee Moinian: That, that's a great question, Mark. And again, it, um, it's, it's these kinds of actions by the [00:52:00] outgoing administration, you know, we had similar situation, uh, before, uh, President, um, President Obama. November, um, with for Obama, uh, stepped out where, um, there was a resolution, um, at the last hour against Israel that went through at the, at the UN.
I think the, um, administration of Obama, Biden, the eight years of Obama and the four years of Biden, were very wedded to reorienting the Middle East around a reformed Islamic regime and it's It's an outdated, um, worldview, or it's an outdated Middle East view. The Iranian regime is not capable of reforming and does not want to reform.
And it's a message that the Biden administration hasn't, um, completely let sunk in, and the Obama administration did not want to hear. Um, they thought that [00:53:00] the regime, with enough incentives, with enough, Packages, aid packages or you know, not enforcing the sanctions will come to the table. We'll be able to reform, we'll be able to put the nuclear, uh, knowhow, enrichment on the back burner and go forward with a clear mandate to help its own people.
The Islamic regime is not interested in that, and it's not interested in protecting its own people as we can see. You know, it's a regime that shoots its own people, blinds its own people. Uh, I can't imagine, um, another country, and there are other countries, of course, uh, it's imaginable that is so much against its own people.
It's ready to sacrifice. Pakistanis, Afghani, Iraqis, Syrians at the behest of its own foreign policy agenda. So it's a very decis stabilizing force. I, I think why this administration is doing that, I think it's still trying to bring the Iranians back to the [00:54:00] table of. so much for joining us today and we hope to see you in the next session.
Bye. And if we are attacked again, we might change our doctrine and we might go for a nuclear bomb.
Marc: Is that right? So
Nazee Moinian: yes, this was, uh, this was by, um, the, I think his name is Khairazi, who's in foreign ministry, who said, um, you know, we, we can change our nuclear doctrine just last week or 10 years ago. So,
Marc: that's alarming.
So,
Nazee Moinian: you know, I, I think, I think the two administrations, um, Do not read the regime well, or do not want to accept that this regime is not reformable.
Marc: Yeah, it's [00:55:00] bonkers, and honestly, it's um, an issue like when you talk about the pro Hamas movements on American college campuses and all, it's just such a clear issue of moral clarity to me.
Like, Don't understand how anybody would support Hamas, a terrorist organization. And then if you go even further, it looks like the United Nations, the United States today is using little Israel to fight all on, you know, on seven different fronts. It's like this tiny little like proxy army of ours that we're using instead of like really going in and supporting them wholeheartedly.
Um, prime minister Netanyahu last night, Israel's prime minister Netanyahu last night. Um, put together a, um, I interpret it as a video directed towards the Iranian people. He spoke in English and it's almost laughable. It's like Netanyahu all alone is like asking the Iranian people to rise up against the regime that is brutal.
And, and to your point, they're killing and torturing and [00:56:00] blinding people. Um, his words were really, really poignant. And I'm curious, From your perspective, um, I'd love for you to reflect on them. I'll, if it's okay with you, I'm going to read some of Netanyahu's words. So he said, this is really remarkable, he really spoke to them in an emotional way.
He said, I want you to imagine, just imagine how your life could be different if Iran was free. You could speak your mind without fear. You could make a joke without wondering if you'd be carted off to prison. Close your eyes. Picture the faces of your children. Beautiful, innocent souls. Think of the endless potential they would have.
Their entire lives are ahead of them. What do you think, Nasi? Do you think Netanyahu is just talking out to nobody? Like, is anybody ever going to hear that message? Do you think people believe him? Like, he's all alone.
Nazee Moinian: Well, uh, no, he's not all alone. I, I think again, uh, the, [00:57:00] the Iranians, the Gen Z Iranians, Nasli Zed in Farsi, um, about 60 percent of the population is between the ages of 15 and 55.
It's. People who do not remember pre revolution days and people who remember their most, uh, pre revolution days very well. Um, they are wary, very aware of their plights. Again, 80 percent of the population of the ones that were the 200, 000 that were surveyed opposed this regime. Uh, and, and, you know, to, to BB's credit, you know, those words gave me goosebumps, but, uh, it, it's kind of amazing.
To Bini's credit, he's been very good at making sure that Israel's actions are not against the Iranian people. It's against the Islamic regime. He distinguishes between the two very well. He has been doing that [00:58:00] forever. Um, and, you know, I think part of it is because there are about 250, 000 Iranian Jews in Israel.
They're, they're very much Part of the fabric of the society. So he knows that he knows them well, not individually, but, uh, as a group, um, he has good Iranian Jewish friends. Um, as Tom Friedman said in a column in New York Times, Iranians thrive, um, outside of their own country. They become masters of industries.
You know, the Silicon Valley is full of Iranian entrepreneurs, uh, Wall Street. They're over 500, about 600. American University, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and other Iranians. Um, actually the U. S. Census of 2010 and again 2020, uh, puts Iranian Americans as the second most Bibi is the most [00:59:00] successful minority ever in the history of the United States in the average income, um, number of PhDs, number of higher degrees, masters, uh, college degrees, um, you know, all kinds of benchmarks of success.
So, uh, Bibi understands us very well. He's not, uh, he's not talking to no one. Uh, Iranians understand that too, right? You know, it's, it's. It's amazing that I have friends in Israel who, who say to me, uh, you know, we are hoping that our BB will go ahead and free Iran. I mean, the Iranians are saying the same thing.
So, uh, what does that mean? It just means that there was a historical relationship between Iran and Israel. It was a reciprocated friendship. Jews have lived in Iran for thousands of years and everyone hopes [01:00:00] that that's restored again.
Marc: BB in the same, in the same speech, he appealed to the Iranians from an economic perspective.
So it's interesting that you're highlighting that, that part of, you know, the Iranian culture's impact on the United States. He mentioned that the last missile attack into, from Iran into Israel caused Iran to 2. 3 billion in missile expenses and highlighted what that could have brought their families as it relates to access to resources, better health, better quality of life.
He said, don't let your dreams die. And then he used the words Zan, Zandegi, Azadi. Which I believe, if I'm interpreting it correctly, women life freedom. So he goes back to women. Yes. Again, did I say that correctly? Zz Z. Doggy. Yes.
Nazee Moinian: I, I, I even like your accent better than my accent because it gives the lyrical twist.
Um, yes. Z and girls, it [01:01:00] means woman life freedom. Uh, it's been the, the slogan of the movement in 2022. Ever since, uh, it's, um, it posts. Again, it puts the Iranian women in focus that, you know, it's my belief and it's a belief of many other people that the next revolution is, will be, um, brought forth by the Iranian women, backed by the Iranian men.
Um, they've been in lockstep with their, uh, with their women, with their sisters and mothers and daughters and whoever has taken to the street. It's interesting that this generation of Iranian people, the Gen Z's, Uh, blame their parents and grandparents for their, uh, for the revolution. You know, they, they, they said, look what you've done to our generation.
You know, we, you had all the freedom that you could have had. I mean, Iran was not a perfect, uh, system of, um, governance at the time under the Shah, but, you know, it [01:02:00] was getting there. He, he could have, he could have reformed, which he did try to reform, but it was kind of late. But, you know, the days under the shawl, the years under the shawl.
Um, we're, we're the Haasian days again, for the word that I used before, and the Gen Z Iranians, um, are upset at their parents and grandparents for having brought forth the revolution.
Marc: Nasi, I have to ask you, do you have concerns about coming onto a platform like this and publicly speaking about the Iranian regime?
Nazee Moinian: Uh, that's a great question, Mark. And, and, uh, I I am doing what I'm doing, um, because I care about Iran, uh, but most importantly, I care about, um, us, our way of life here in America, in the Western world, um, about the world order. I, I, Iran, uh, the Islamic regime [01:03:00] is not a threat that anyone should take lightly.
It's a, it's a regime focused, laser focused, strategic patience, long view. To topple the American system, the Western liberal order, and any, um, sidestepping the Islamic threats coming out of, uh, Tehran is really going to hurt us in the near future. Um, I urge anyone who cares about their way of life to actually step up.
And in their capacity counter, um, the threat of the Islamic regime and, and make sure that the Iranian women are heard, that they have agency, that they have the tools they need to have in order to continue their fight. I urge all, uh, the tech companies, uh, to come together and create a strategy. going [01:04:00] forward, where they can help the Iranian people even further.
So am I concerned? My concern, obviously, is for my safety, the safety of my family, my surrounding, my community. And, but my bigger concern is, um, is for freedom. And I know that sounds cliché, but that's exactly what the Islamic regime wants to take away.
Marc: Thank you for being so honest. Nazi, you mentioned that your mom was a shirzan.
I think you are a shirzan, too. You should be really proud, and I'm sure your children will be, um, as, as equally brave. Um, I end every show in the same way with my guests. Um, I start the I start a sentence and my guest finishes it. I incorporate the name of the show, some future day, into the beginning of that statement.
I've had a lot of your time today and I really am grateful. Are you game for, um, for this ending? Can I, can I bring you into the way we end this show?
Nazee Moinian: I love [01:05:00] it. Please go ahead.
Marc: Okay, Nazi, so in some future day, brave Iranian women will, in some future day, brave Iranian women will?
Nazee Moinian: Let me think about this for a second, um, because the brave Iranian women already are, so what will they do more in the future?
In some future day, the brave Iranian women in Iran and around the world will come to audiences and say, See, we told you so.
Marc: I love that. That's beautiful. And I really do hope it comes true.
Nazee Moinian: Thank you.
Marc: Imminently.
Nazee Moinian: Inshallah.
Marc: All right, Nazi. Thank you so much for your time today. I know your time is very important.
So thank you so much for joining me today. For ongoing insights surrounding these [01:06:00] important topics, you can join the conversation. On my social media channels, including Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Mark Beckman. And to sign up for my newsletter on Substack, you can find me at markbeckman. substack.
com to make sure you don't miss a show. Be sure to subscribe to Some Future Day across all major platforms worldwide, including YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. Special thanks to New York University for producing Some Future Day, and a big shout out to my producer extraordinaire, Jon Bumhoffer, for being patient and always encouraging me to push through.
Thanks a lot, Jon. Have a great [01:07:00] day