Some Future Day

Marc Beckman: [00:01:00] Ambassador Georgette Mosbacher. It is such a honor and a pleasure to have you join me today on Some Future Day. Welcome.
Georgette Mosbacher: Thank you, Marc. It's always a [00:02:00] pleasure to be with you and I always know it's gonna be interesting when I'm with you.
Marc Beckman: Well, we were just talking a second ago about this horrific. Useless and senseless murder of two young 20 somethings who were planning their engagement in Washington dc They were murdered, because they attended an event, a Jewish event, and they were murdered because of their religion in our nation's capital.
As an ambassador of a former ambassador of the United States. What would you say to the American public at this moment in time? The, the, by the way, it's worth mentioning that the individual who was arrested, um, uh, was in, when he was in handcuffs from the police, he was screaming free Palestine. Uh, so it, it does signal that this is a religious anti-Semitic motivated, uh, crime. But again, he was just arrested. He [00:03:00] is not found guilty. Obviously, we have the Constitution in the United States here, but what's your take on this type of a thing?
Georgette Mosbacher: Look, uh, constitution or no Constitution. All right, Marc. Uh, I really don't care. Uh, this for a young couple to be shot dead in our capital because they were Jewish is, um, is something if every American today, and if every media outlet is not leaving right now. With this story, condemning it in the strongest possible terms, then we're complicit and we will have more of this and see more of this.
And I don't care whether it's our capital or if it was on a farm in Iowa. This is unacceptable. And what it says about the security in our country, what it says that anyone could think they could do this. Is, um, each, every American needs to take responsibility for [00:04:00] this and speak out and condemn this because that's the only way we are gonna stop this kind of thing.
Marc Beckman: It's
Georgette Mosbacher: I'm just horrified. I don't know what else to say. I.
Marc Beckman: It's a, it's a slippery slope. It like becomes, um, hunting season for Jews, and you have these. Pundits, frankly, on both the left and the right. Now, the right has a little faction also that is, uh, spewing such anti-Israel, anti-Jewish rhetoric that it could inflame. I mean, do you think this type of a thing, you remember the, um, that terrible murderer, the killer, um, this guy Luigi, this guy?
Uh, you know, and, and they, they, they made him out to be a hero. I wouldn't be surprised if the left wing mob makes this individual this killer. I think his last name is Rodriguez, into a hero like Luigi. I.
Georgette Mosbacher: Marc if that happens. [00:05:00] Um, that is something I, I can only say, and it takes all of us to, to literally scream them down. And you know, screaming, we always say, that doesn't work well in this case. We scream that far left down. We need to condemn them, we need to isolate them and we need to call them out for what they are.
And, uh, uh, anyone who could possibly make a hero out of someone that shoots a couple, shoots them dead. And I, I don't even care whether you're right or left or Jewish or Palestine. I don't even care. You don't shoot people dead for any reason, any reason. And, if we aren't screaming this as long as we can, [00:06:00] then shame on us.
Shame on us.
Marc Beckman: Do you, do you think America has some kind of a, a mental. Illness right now, like a deep rooted mental illness where an individual would think it's okay to murder two young people enjoying their lives in Washington, DC at night like this. It's, it's not surprising, right? Like, you're not surprised to, to learn of this news.
You're just extremely disappointed
Georgette Mosbacher: What does that say though, Marc? What does it say? That I'm not surprised or that you're not surprised? What does that say? That's a whole nother conversation, isn't it? The fact that we aren't surprised that someone can shoot dead a young couple because they're Jewish. That alone there, there is a derangement in that Marc.
There is a derangement in that. Now. [00:07:00] I don't know exactly. Where, what the genesis of that is. Um, but I do think that when you have a far left media that could possibly find anything positive about that, they're deranged. And um, and I don't know what we do about it except what we're doing right now, you and me.
Condemning it, talking about it and making it a, a priority to, to say this is not something that any human being but should find acceptable under any circumstances for any reason.
Marc Beckman: Ambassador Mosbacher, like your, your life and your career has been just so illustrious. You've done so much in the private sector and the public sector. [00:08:00] Um. All over the planet, not just here in the United States, but beyond into Europe. You have friends and allies across every continent, you know, people all over the world. Have you ever seen anything like this before in our nation's history? Does this remind you in your lifetime of a, of a particular historic moment where America. Had this type of mental illness where they were shredded politically, so divided, so polarized that they would resort to this level of violence.
Georgette Mosbacher: You know, Marc, that's a good question. And, um, I have to think way, way, way back at my age. But, um, there was. There was a time during the Vietnam War when we were ugly, um, when we spit on our own, our own troops that came back [00:09:00] when they were only doing their duty. Um, we sent them there. So I do think that there are times when politics, uh.
Really interfere or somehow, uh, we allow those, those negative voices to, um, dominate the dialogue. And then it brings out the worst in people. so there probably are other times. I think the thing right now that we should be asking ourselves is what have we learned from those times that we could repeat any of that behavior.
But Marc, I, I, I sit here, not, I'm in Greece at the moment talking to you and, uh, [00:10:00] just came from Poland. And when I think about the death and destruction that's taking place in Ukraine, we are dropping bombs and shooting people dead. Um, you know, this is, we're in 20 20, 20, 25, 20 first century. All this technology, all this knowledge, everything we're supposed to learn from the first World War, from the second World War, and then throughout history.
And you have to ask yourself, how are we dropping bombs and, and shooting people dead in, in a country not that far from here.
And what's the answer to that question Marc? I guess we haven't, or we wouldn't be doing it. So I don't know where we go from this. I mean, I've heard arguments that this is the beginning of the, of, of, of the end of civil, this civilization [00:11:00] maybe as negative and as that may be if we're not willing. To take a look at these things and examine them for what they are and say, you know, it's never gonna happen again, happen again.
And we've heard that before, haven't we? We've heard that throughout history. It's never gonna happen again, but then it does. So where does that lead us? What does that say about us? What does it say about all this technology and all of this that's supposed to enrich our lives and take us forward? If. The most primitive way I.
Marc Beckman: you know, it's, yeah, I, I mean, it's interesting ambassador, like you, you talk about the advances of human civilization you're using. technology or emerging technologies as a tentpole, but that applies across beautiful, uh, moments in time with artwork, with literature, with music. Um, our architecture is highly [00:12:00] advanced and sophisticated.
There's a lot of beauty. That humanity has brought to the world, but then you take us to 2025 and the world's on fire. It's not just here in the United States with this incident, but look at you. You mentioned Europe. The Middle East is on fire. There are regions in Africa that we don't talk about a lot here in the west, but they're on fire. Um, certainly you wouldn't be surprised if we saw some flare up in China to Taiwan. Why do you think humanity is in such a state of turmoil right now? And where do you think we're going?
Georgette Mosbacher: Hmm. Look, when I think about what's going on in North Korea, people are starving. It's hard to, hard to wrap your head around that with all this technology and the ability to do what we do. Um, I think a lot of it comes down to leadership. Uh, you know, um, great leaders [00:13:00] have throughout history have rewritten history in a positive way.
Um, also I think it's about media. Uh, Marc, quite honestly, we get messages from a lot of places now, and as you said earlier, there are these. There are these website podcasts, et cetera, a lot more than we had even 10 years ago. So there's a lot more hate being spewed and unfortunately it reaches more people, this hate speech, this, uh, whether you wanna call it even these misinformation campaigns as ambassador to Poland.
I watched Russia do that very effectively. Right, these campaigns to, um, to really work people up over, over historical dissents and so forth. Uh, [00:14:00] it's become an art form, if not a science. And, um, we're seeing more and more of that where they manipulate. And Marc, maybe this is naive or, but no, we've talked about brainwashing.
As long as I can remember, it is not a new concept. Um, people log on to these websites where they hear this hate that works them up. And um, you know, I was reading today Marc Pornography, that the how pornography young people. Watching on their, their, these, their screens, their, their, their phones. How all this pornography, they're, they're, they're taking, and because they have access to it so easily and it's hard to keep kids, you know, control [00:15:00] what they, what they see.
And these are young minds. These are minds that are just being formed and. They're getting their information from a lot of places and a lot of bad people, a lot of hate speech, uh, hate ideologies. I'm not sure. You know, I know how much, uh, technology has made me more productive, Marc, but I'm not sure about this technology when it comes to information, if that.
There isn't really a dark side to that that we have not talked about enough that we haven't figured out how to harness. And I wonder if that isn't driving a lot of this because we can reach a lot more people today. A lot more people.
Marc Beckman: For sure. I, I agree with you, ambassador, but here, here's something that's interesting. It's definitely driving it right? I think social media has made it very [00:16:00] simple for misinformation, hate, messages, um, you know, intolerance, a lack of unification. That's all happening. But another phenomenon that I've noticed recently because of something that happened with artificial intelligence in China and Taiwan. Um. People don't care either. Certain media outlets don't care if the narrative doesn't fit and they're not gonna get those clicks. Even Legacy media doesn't care. So Reuters about a month ago, I'm curious if you've even heard of this. Actually, Reuters, about a month ago, reported that China put. They used artificial intelligence, the Chinese government, to put a campaign, an inf, a disinformation misinformation campaign into Taiwan that was anti-American and anti-democratic.
They used artificial intelligence to create messaging in video, in writing, and they had, um, hyperrealistic photos. That were pumped into the population in Taiwan, all with the purpose [00:17:00] to malign America and democracy. And it wasn't. But for the fact that somebody pointed this article out to me, I would never have known, I would not have seen it on any media, including by the way, like Fox News or places that you might find your, you know, your news. Um, is it because we don't care Also? Like, so, so there, there, maybe this is a two high, a two-headed beast where the one side is everybody's got a microphone and we're sending all kinds of content out. That's where you started. But have we reached this point in time also where people and news don't care to report things like this unless they're gonna get the clicks?
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, look, I I don't think that's new. I mean, you know, uh, yellow journalism has been around a long time. Uh, you know, anything to, to sell the newspaper or get the ratings, but I, I do believe in what you're describing. I did not hear about, uh, but I saw firsthand in Poland, in [00:18:00] Central Eastern Europe. Russia and China, North Korea, Iran had these campaigns to damage, uh, the American brand.
And by the way, uh, I remember asking for a, um, a poll so I could see, um, how the American brand was standing up to Russia or any of China other brands. And you could see the decline. And I, I, I will admit here that I did not personally have the skillset, nor did the embassy have the skillset to push back on this.
Um, I was just barely recognizing it. Marc, I. And that, that alone was hard enough because they were so good at it damaging our brand, doing exactly what you just said that they were doing and China was doing in Taiwan. [00:19:00] That's not even new. The thing is that they're much better at it. They have, uh, far more outlets for it.
Uh, it's, it's, it's easier for them to reach more people and I'm not sure that we in the United States, or even in uni, US government or the State Department. Have fully embraced the, uh, threat that this poses to us. And, um, I know it wasn't a high priority when I was ambassador, and yet I, I felt it should be.
I, I just didn't have the skillset to do it. And I, I don't, I think you're gonna see a lot more of this, a lot more of this, and that's why this argument around TikTok and all this data. If you can manipulate, you have all that data, you know how to reach people and you know how to message them. Look, you are in that business to some degree and you are really, really good at it.
Marc, I mean, you're one of [00:20:00] the best in the world at messaging. You are one of the best in the world at, at creating a brand and, and, and managing an image. You're the one of the best in the world. Well, Marc, you do it positively. But there are countries who want to damage our brand and want to make the United States.
Uh, they, they want to weaken us and our values and how we see ourselves and there, and we have to take this seriously. We need to call on people like you. To say, take a look at this. See, I didn't see what China did. You obviously did, and I just have to tell you, we're gonna see a lot more of that. And if we don't plan, if we don't have our own plans and to, to counter that, [00:21:00] we're gonna be, we're gonna lose this.
Marc Beckman: So, so when you were sitting in, uh, Poland as the American Ambassador, you started to notice camp anti-American campaigns coming into the Polish marketplace from
Georgette Mosbacher: Absolutely absolute because the Poles love Americans. They needed to discredit us. And they needed, the Russians needed to, uh, to make the Poles feel like, you know what? You trust Americans. Well, maybe you shouldn't trust Americans. Maybe you should think about this. Maybe that trust is misplaced and subtly, but very effectively we're making those arguments over and over again in different ways and, uh.
You can just, you, you could see it across Central Eastern, actually see it. I asked to see it across Europe and when I saw that there were people in Austria that trusted the Russians more than they trusted the Americans, I said, we got a problem. [00:22:00] We have a problem.
Marc Beckman: Do you
Georgette Mosbacher: And
Marc Beckman: what type of messaging Russia was sending into the Polish
Georgette Mosbacher: you know, it was so, so good that for instance, uh, they'd exploit our riots. All right in the United States, and they'd only take the images that were most disturbing. And then they built a narrative around it saying, you see, they don't really have freedom of speech. You see, they're not really a tolerant society.
I, I'm far more subtle than that, that Marc with experts that would say, well, actually this is what happened and this is why this happened. Just. They take the truth, just enough of it, and then they start to manipulate it to a very negative, negative, uh, to, to match their goal. And I, I saw that and I'm sure today, tomorrow we will [00:23:00] see in different places around the world, them take that murder in Washington DC in our capitol, and they're gonna manipulate that.
See the United States isn't safe. You see the United States isn't tolerant. They caused this. It's, it's, and, and they'll, and they'll, and they're gonna do that. And there are gonna be a lot of people who say, yeah, well, wow. You know? Yeah. I don't see this happening anywhere else. I mean only, and that's what happens.
Marc Beckman: So do you think that was starting at the top? Do you think that started with Putin?
Georgette Mosbacher: Oh, I, I think it's, I stated it, start, started back with the, I mean, the Nazis had an extraordinary machine. You recall, uh, what we, we read about their disinformation and, um, so I, no, I, I think this has been going on as long as we've been able to communicate across any space. [00:24:00] So newspapers, any, I think yellow journalism know where they can take a story and blow it up or take a story that really is basically, uh, one off, but make it look like it's a big deal.
So, no, I, I think it's been going on for a long time. It's just far more sophisticated, far, far more difficult to spot. And it has a much broader audience because, and technology has allowed us to reach a lot, lot more people.
Marc Beckman: Ambassador Mosbacher is America though also engaging. In a counter war, a counter information war with the rest of the globe. We have radio stations, we have newspapers, we have all of the access to artificial intelligence. What are we doing as a nation to push back into, uh, these communist or or monarchy types of regimes?
Georgette Mosbacher: It's a good [00:25:00] question Marc. And here's the problem. We're a rule based country and, um, we are also have all kinds of, um, you know, we, we. We, we don't allow, we have all kinds of regulations. That's a whole nother conversation, but we have a lot of regulations. We have a lot of regulations in this respect. So we can't do, they don't allow us to do what our enemies do.
We can't have these, these bots and the, and, and, and the, these kind of things that they do. That is tying our hand behind one of our arms behind her back now. One could argue, well, we have to take this ethical approach. You know, I get that. I get, I get that. But, you know, it's very difficult to plan a back, you know, in a, in a, in a playground [00:26:00] where your opponent has no rules and you have a lot of them, a lot of regulations, a lot of rules.
What you can do and what you can't do. It really does, and, and I look, some of these rules are, I, I understand they're ethics based and, and so forth, but a lot of these regulations don't make any sense either, but we know that already.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, but, but let's, let's be honest, like, let's talk about America. American ethics or American moral codes like we're talking about, um, media campaigns, propaganda from America into the rest of the world. But you said earlier it's 2025 and there are still bombs dropping like crazy in, in Ukraine right now, yet we are the ones supplying Ukraine with a ton of, uh, military weaponry.
You know, we are the masters of war. And the same thing would apply into the Middle East with Israel. Like we are the masters of war really. So where [00:27:00] does, uh, American ethics stand when it comes to, uh, situations of, of war? I.
Georgette Mosbacher: Let me, let me just, if I can be more, uh, just take it down to more, something more specific. When Ukraine, when that war broke out, um, if I can just frame it if we have the time just to frame it quickly. Alright. We, all of our intelligence, everyone had the same intelligence that Putin was going to invade Ukraine and we didn't believe it.
Then, uh, we watched Putin put 200,000 troops on the border and no one believed their own eyes. And then Putin invaded. And this is, this is a little disturbing, I admit, but we've gotta be honest. We watched everyone say, you can have Ukraine if you take it fast. Okay. But [00:28:00] then the Ukrainians proved to be these very patriotic, fierce warriors and everyone, oh my God, they were embarrassed.
Now what do we do to help Ukraine? So, um, either there's two ways to look at this. Either let let Ukraine go and you let these aggressors do what they want, and that really is not an option. You give them everything they need to win. What I think the Biden administration did was an incremental war Marc.
They gave them just enough to win a battle, but not enough to win the war. I think that's immoral. So either you're gonna do it or you're not gonna do it. For it to go on and on and on like this. And, um, you know, this idea that. This is gonna get me into trouble for saying this, but this [00:29:00] idea that there's anything humane about war, that we have to let you know, refugees out, or we've gotta let food in or, I mean, you know this, this, I don't understand this.
Certainly in World War ii, no one worried about whether they bombed cities or whether children died, or whether women died. I mean, war.
Marc Beckman: Tons of German civilians died.
Georgette Mosbacher: It, it, so, you know, this idea that you can wage war and have some sort of humanitarian aspect to it is, I think it's absurd because I think, you know, by definition, war is about death and destruction. And so either, so what do we do? What, what do we do? Do we give them everything they need to win or do we let them go?
I know from a personal how I see it, but I also understand another [00:30:00] side of it. But, but I just don't know. I think President Trump is absolutely right. You have to stop the killing. You have to stop the killing and the destruction. Uh, and the question is how do you do that? And there are two totally different schools of thought on this.
You know, one is to. To just calm Putin down and the other one is to wipe Putin out. I don't have that answer. I know what I personally would do, but, uh, I, I would do whatever it takes to stop the war. That's what I would do. Stop the death and destruction. I.
Marc Beckman: So when you shared the context of the beginning of the war, you said a few interesting things, like something that's always been on my mind. And just to be clear, like I actually, it sounds like you and I are philosophically the same. We should have. Before the war was started, we should have ramped up our support of Ukraine with full American muscle and strength.
That war should never have gotten to [00:31:00] that point. But why, in your opinion, did we have all of this information coming or intelligence showed? To your point, the, uh, Russian military amassing massive amounts of, of um, uh, soldiers right on the border of Ukraine. He was projecting verbally that he was going to attack Ukraine. Why did America not step in and intervene at that point in time? What? What was the problem?
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, first of all, I would say that was the Europeans first and foremost. It's right in their backyard. Uh, and this idea that they can always, you know, uh. Go to the United States to, to, to, to fix their problems. Uh, Trump has been right about that from the very beginning. They never invested in their own security.
So first of all, to your question, they didn't have the means to do it. That's number one, Marc. Simple. The simple answer. Europeans didn't have the means, right? [00:32:00] Germany, France, Italy, they didn't have the means to do it because they didn't invest in that, their security. So they have to call us. And, um, I think the other secondly is that there wasn't the leadership, there wasn't the leadership to stop it before it began.
There was no one, there was no strong, certainly American leadership, any cer, European leadership, but even American leadership. Um, we didn't have the leadership to stop this when we saw what was gonna happen to go and, and, and, and figure out what had to be done to keep it from happening. It's always easier to keep it from happening than try to stop it after it's, and then once it did happen again, I don't think we had the leadership to say, okay, um, how do we end this?
No one. And to this day, I can't get this answer Marc. And I just asked this at a [00:33:00] conference I was at in, in, in, uh, New Delhi a month ago, and I said, well, what does winning look like? I mean, you know what, we are out to win, right? Alright, so what does that look like? If you don't know what that looks like, how are you going to get there?
And I haven't heard that answer. I have yet to hear an answer. A, what does winning look like? What does standing up to Putin mean? I asked that the same conference, someone said, well, we have to stand up to Putin. I said, okay. What is standing up to Putin? What, what? What does that mean? Well, no one could answer that.
So until we have leadership that can.
Marc Beckman: you mentioned earlier that like in the beginning of the Ukraine, uh, Russia war, that it, it sounds like what you were saying is that the international community, including the Europeans, France, Germany, Italy, uk were all, they were alright with Putin marching in and taking Ukraine.
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, you know, in 2014 they didn't [00:34:00] do anything about it, right. So now they, it, it, it clearly appeared that it was okay if you did it fast. They expected Putin the army to overrun it quickly. They knew they didn't have the ability to stop it. And, but when the Ukrainians, uh, stood up to Putin, they were embarrassed.
All of a sudden they go, oh my gosh, you know, we can't look, look at us. I mean, we, we, we, we, we can't look like we're not doing anything. Look at the Ukrainians. They're, they're dying. And then all of a sudden, oh my goodness, they started pounding their chest and say, we have to help the Ukrainians win this course.
No one ever defining what winning looks like, and I'm not sure we go out to win anymore. Marc. I mean, whether it was in af it's in. Do we go out to win? Um, look how many years we spent in, in, in, [00:35:00] in Afghanistan and how we left. And it's, it's exactly where it was. Where if we hadn't been there,
Marc Beckman: So in your opinion, what is winning? Like, how would you define, again, staying focused on Ukraine, Russia, what would be a victory for, let's say America?
Georgette Mosbacher: it would be a victory. If we stopped the deaths and the destruction, stop the bombs and stop the shooting. A cease fire would be a victory. But how do you get to a ceasefire? That's the question. And I'm afraid that no one's prepared to do what it would take with Putin to get to a ceasefire.
Marc Beckman: Well, let's break it down for a second. I, I know that you're very well read on, on Putin, and I know that you're in a certain way, an expert actually on Putin and certainly on an expert on geopolitics. Who is Vladimir Putin?
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, there's two.
Marc Beckman: understand this person?
Georgette Mosbacher: Yeah, I think we can. And after 20 years of him being in power, it's not like we don't, we can't look at it how he's behaved over 20 years. There's [00:36:00] two amazing books. One is The Man Without A Face and Putin's People. Uh, you read these two books that will give you a real insight to who Putin is, but we've had 20 years to observe him.
We watched what he did in 2014 in Ukraine and in Georgia. Um, we know the history of Russia, which has a very high threshold for pain, very high, something Americans do not have, right? We have, we have been very fortunate to live in the United States of America. We've been coddled none. We don't know what war is.
We really don't know what that is. Uh, we've never had it on our soil, so, um. I think it, it, we don't have a frame of reference and that's difficult, right? So, uh, but we know who Putin is. We know what he understands. We know what his goals are. We know how he thinks. [00:37:00] Um, the question is how do you take that information and make it work for you and do what you have to do to bring him to heel?
Can Putin be brought to heel? Yes, I believe any criminal like that can be brought to heal, but you have to be willing to, and, and that, that takes a, a lot of courage. And, and Europe doesn't have it. Europe doesn't have the leadership and it doesn't have the courage and, and it doesn't have quite frankly, the ability because.
We, uh, we guaranteed its security for so long. And that piece, dividend, they built their countries, but they didn't build their, build their security. And we could take that. That's another, uh, conversation in that their, uh, energy security, I mean, um, they were all dependent [00:38:00] on the cheap energy from Russia.
Knowing who Putin is, knowing what he did, what he did in 2014, we know who he is, and yet it continued to have their energy security, uh, dependent on Vladimir Putin. Well, how does, how does that make any sense? Uh, Marc, how, how is that any planning? And then, then what do you do? I. Without energy, we don't have anything.
Right. So we have no jobs, we have no factories, we have nothing. We have no hospitals, nothing works. So what were they thinking when they were putting that energy policy together? At least Trump understands that he is made us energy independent.
Marc Beckman: What was the American government thinking in allowing for our allies to put those energy policies together with Russia when they could have just done it with us?
Georgette Mosbacher: You know, Marc, I was there when, when Trump as his ambassador. Uh, the first term when he [00:39:00] said, pay your 2%, and they all went crazy. They called us every name. They said the United States can't be counted on. We're not good partners. We're not good allies. Why? Because Trump put a mirror up to them and they had to, to look in that mirror and realize that they hadn't made that investment.
And that the American people were just not gonna do that anymore. And it was time for them to do it. So, um, they need, they pre president Trump's the first president come along that said, has said to them, alright, you have to take responsibility for your security and you can't be good at, it's actually the other way around, Marc.
It's when they say, we're bad a bad ally because of this. It's the other way around. How can they be good allies when they can't possibly, they don't have a tank that'll go a mile. So how are they [00:40:00] good allies to us? If we needed to call out our allies, they couldn't come to our defense because they aren't capable of it.
'cause they never invested.
Marc Beckman: Right, so, so take me back to Vladimir Putin then with regards to Ukraine, Russia, so we know where it started. What about his perspective? What's his end goal? What's his his end game? What's his strategy?
Georgette Mosbacher: I think,
Marc Beckman: he get the win?
Georgette Mosbacher: well, I think a lot of people, uh, forget or don't understand that a lot of what he does is for domestic consumption. Um, he, he controls that narrative in Russia. And the Russian people are quite happy. I mean, they have food on the table. Anyone who thinks these sanctions have worked don't understand them because they haven't, of course, they never have, they didn't work in Venezuela, they didn't work in, uh, North Korea.
They haven't worked. So he, he tells them, uh, [00:41:00] a story that Ukraine belongs to them and that bad things are happening in Ukraine and it's gonna spill over if he doesn't take control of it. So people who don't realize that he has a whole campaign, he's very popular, Marc, he's very, very popular in Russia. So clearly what he's telling them, they're believing.
And uh, so his end game is to stay in power one. Um, to grab as much territory that he can, um, to enhance their, uh, their power. Um, and he's allied himself, although he is the junior partner in their partnership with China. Nevertheless, uh, for the time being, it's working very well for him. And, and for China it's working well because China is our number one [00:42:00] adversary.
And um, so they've allied with, with Russia, smart move on. Putin's part, smart move. And you know, Russia isn't Cuba, Marc, it's the largest land mass on Earth. So it's not like, you know, we can just isolate them.
Marc Beckman: Sure.
Georgette Mosbacher: There's a lot of people we don't like, we don't like doing business with, but we we're gonna have to deal with Putin.
Marc Beckman: So, so are you saying that like, since the se the Russian se since we, um, imposed sanctions against Russia since the war started, are you saying that they are proving that they can be entirely autonomous? They don't need to rely on, on, you know, America and our allies in the EU and, and in fact their economy is, has flourished since the sanctions started.
Georgette Mosbacher: I didn't look at the price of the, um, of the Russian, uh, what is it called? The Russian money, uh, [00:43:00] from the tip of my tongue. But anyway, I didn't look at it today, but I can tell you that what, from the beginning of the war till now, it hasn't, it hasn't, uh, decreased very much. They are on a war, economic, war footing.
Uh, they put themselves on that. So they are manufacturing. They have worked around manufacturing, uh, uh, what they need. But more importantly, Marc. Who's, who's with us. They're still having their oil and gas purchased by, um, China, India, Africa, south America. So exactly who is with us in this. They're not hurting,
Marc Beckman: Right,
Georgette Mosbacher: we don't buy it, but we never needed it.
Marc Beckman: You talk about isolation, it's kind of interesting because even from a communications perspective under the Biden administration, we stopped [00:44:00] speaking with Putin. There was like, what a good three year period or so where Biden and Putin didn't even speak. And now we've shifted. We've shifted.
I think, um, president Trump had a lengthy conversation with Vladimir Putin via telephone just this week, right as we're recording. This conversation. So the, the, um, former administration didn't speak to Putin at all, and that didn't really work. It looks like that didn't help at all. The war is still going, and, and Russia keeps flourishing, right?
So that didn't work. And a lot of critics of Trump say, well, whoa, you're talking to him. And they start the, they all start the, um. Nonsense about like Trump and Putin being best friends, and, and Trump is a puppet for Putin and all that. But tell me, what do you think we need to do now that, that the, um, channel of communication has reopened?
First, how did, in, in your interpretation, what transpired with their conversation this week and how did it go? And then where do we go from here as it relates to communicating with Russia?
Georgette Mosbacher: I, how do you fix anything [00:45:00] if you don't talk?
Marc Beckman: Stop to talk. It's difficult to speak with your enemies, right?
Georgette Mosbacher: But, but if you don't talk to your enemies, that, that, where, where do you go from there? I, I don't understand how that works, but, um, I, I don't think the call was as positive as President Trump would've liked to have been. I think that Putin is, is proving to be far more difficult than, um, president Trump expected.
President Trump's brilliance is in how he takes enemies and he puts his arms around them and you know, it's like anything in life, Marc. Um, you know, I hate you all right? But I kiss you, I hug you and kiss you. That's tough. You know how, how, how do you, how do you continue to hate someone, right? Who says, you know what?
But you know, they put their arm around you. Okay. He's brilliant. Look what he did in North [00:46:00] Korea. It's brilliant, Marc. Brilliant. And, but the question is, uh, and it truly is brilliant, and all these people say he shouldn't step foot in North Korea. I thought it was genius. Positive gen, genius gave him enough recognition that calmed that little creeped down.
Alright? Uh, so I, but at some point, uh, Putin may prove to only understand force and strength. And if that's, if that's what it is, then it is really not so much our effort. The Europeans have to decide on their border. We have an ocean. They have to decide, are they all in or not. They can't expect the America, the, the United, the president of the United States [00:47:00] to fix all of their problems.
They have to take some responsibility for this Marc.
Marc Beckman: So are they ready though? Ambassador Mosbacher? Like, in my opinion, Poland is, um, you know, really interesting to look at. And obviously you have just a tremendous amount of intelligence, expertise and relationships on the ground in Poland. They're interesting to look at because as a nation, I think they're very impressive.
They've really grown. Quite a bit in so many different ways, not just their GDP, but in so many different ways over the past 10 years or so. But they're a threat too, as far as like their, you know, their, their closeness, their proximity with Russia. I have friends in Warsaw that, you know, whether it's it's founded or not, they are concerned about their safety, they're concerned about, about Poland.
So like in, in your perspective, like what's happening on the ground as it relates to the Poland, the Polish perspective of Putin and Russia.
Georgette Mosbacher: PO Poland knows, uh, they're very realistic. They are [00:48:00] now the leader in nato, four and a half percent. Um, they're building their resilience, uh, both energy independence and their military. They. However, they know they can't, they, they can't defeat Russia alone. No matter what they do. There are 38 million people.
They can't do it. They know that. They know that they need allies. That's what the reason they're investing in their own security. But at the same time, they understand they're in a very difficult place because if their neighbors aren't willing to step up. They know they can't do it alone. That's why it's so important to them, this relationship they have with us, because they know they cannot count on the French, the Germans, the Italian.
They know that.
Marc Beckman: And
Georgette Mosbacher: They know it.
Marc Beckman: they're more aligned with America
Georgette Mosbacher: Oh, absolutely.
Marc Beckman: I would imagine. I'm really asking you than, than Macron and, and all of them.[00:49:00]
Georgette Mosbacher: They, they look, they love Americans. There's 10 million of, of polls in the United States. Uh, we have a historic going back to our Civil War connection with them, but they're real, they're realistic. Marc. There's 38 million of them. Uh, no matter how much money they spend on their security, no matter how big they build their army, they can never defeat Russia on their own.
This idea that Ukraine can? Um, I asked you what is that about? Did anyone ever believe that Ukraine could beat Russia on their own? Uh, so, uh, they understand how important these alliances are, but they also understand that they have to take on, uh, responsibility, um, and they have to invest. So, uh, I just don't think Europe is, Europe is awakened to that reality no matter what.
Marc Beckman: Do you think that the short term, uh, imminent [00:50:00] threat of Russia attacking other nations beyond Ukraine is real?
Georgette Mosbacher: Yes, very real. I can remember my briefings, uh, when I was ambassador about the, uh, Balkans. They can take the Balkans overnight. Right? Or the Baltics, I'm sorry, I. Baltics, they can take the Bal Baltics overnight. The Russians, there's nothing really we could do about it. I mean, not really. 'cause it, it's right there.
Um, and yes, I do think that there is a threat if Putin believes that, that he can get away with it. I mean, look, uh, if he, if you can take the property next door to yours without much. With, you know, with, with very little effort what you're gonna take it. Um, it's a Putin to understand him. He [00:51:00] believes that he has to rebuild the Russian Empire.
Just like Xi Jinping believes that Taiwan belongs to China. If you don't understand their history, you don't understand how they think, the don't understand their culture, then you can't understand that. This is very visceral for them, right? So if you're gonna stop them, you have to stop them, literally stop them.
Or you have to find a way to, um, to make some sort of deal with them to stop the killing in the destruction somewhat what we've done in, in Korea, right? Uh, the demilitarized zone.
Marc Beckman: if you were going to provide President Trump and Secretary Rubio with advice as it relates to stopping the war in Ukraine. Russia, advice would you provide?
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, I think they're, [00:52:00] they're doing, they're on the right track. They're talking. I mean, that's first of all, I mean that, and, and, and President Trump is, is a genius in making these kind of deals. Uh, however, I. No, I, I, I personally, I'm gonna get into trouble for saying this, but, uh, I wouldn't have sat and waited three hours for Putin if I was the Emissary, the president.
No way. Maybe an hour.
Marc Beckman: What? What are you, what are
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, we sent, we sent an emmi. We, we, you know, president Trump sent, uh, Woff to negotiate with, with, um, president Putin. And my understanding is. It may have been longer, but I understand it was at least three hours. He waited. I think it's insulting and I would've left, so maybe I, I'm not such a great diplomat because I'd have gotten up, I'd left and said, please tell President Putin.
I understand he has a busy schedule and we'll [00:53:00] reschedule this, but I don't wait. I'm the emissary from the president of the United States, and I'm not going to wait. I also probably would've hung up the phone and sent a fleet of F-16s. Right over to Ukraine and bombed the hell outta Moscow. But, oh my God, I'm gonna get in such trouble for this.
And I would've said, did I have gotten on the phone with Putin and said, oh wait, I just, you know, don't take it personally. There's nothing personal we wanna, I wanna cease fire. Let's work this out. Just because we set F-16s in a couple of missiles that could reach Moscow doesn't mean I, please don't misunderstand that President Putin this.
Don't take it personally. I. This is a war and we're just doing our part, but I wanna cease fire, but if I don't get one, the next city will be our second biggest city in, in, in Russia. Let's see how long your people get, go, go along with that.
Marc Beckman: So you
Georgette Mosbacher: I wouldn't have said, I wouldn't have put American troops, I would've set the planes to, [00:54:00] to the Ukrainians.
'cause we can't have NATO involved, but it doesn't mean we can't give it all to, to the Ukrainians. 'cause they're willing to do it. They're willing to die for it and they're willing to do that.
Marc Beckman: So
Georgette Mosbacher: Now I'm gonna be a big, you know, Marc, you're gonna get me. You really hope you're gonna get me in big trouble for this
Marc Beckman: Well you said it's insulting. It's, it's interesting 'cause it's obviously insulting to Steve Witkoff, right? To have him fly all the way, all the way to
Georgette Mosbacher: insulting to the president. This is the president's, this is the president who the president chose to send. It's, it's an insult to the president that he would make his emissary. Sit there and wait for that many hours. You have an appointment. You show respect, or at least that's the way I see it.
Marc Beckman: So let's look back at politics at home then as it relates to this issue. Um, how important is it for the Republican party and President Trump to get some victories overseas before the midterms? Does it matter if Ukraine and Russia. Should continue to fight by the time we get to [00:55:00] the midterms.
Georgette Mosbacher: no, Marc. I don't think it matters at all. I think American people, you know, they care about. They work eight hours a day. They come home, they sit down at the table, they wanna make sure there's food on the table. They care about whether they can buy those bread and eggs and milk. Uh, they care about whether they have the jo their, their job they care about if the kids are in a school where they're learning to read and write.
So, no, uh, I think when it comes to these elect to our midterm elections, it's about, um, local poli politics and whether delivering.
Marc Beckman: when the United States provides Ukraine weapons for war, is that good for our economy? I.
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, sure it's good for our economy. I mean, we make 'em, we sell them, we make a profit on them. Uh, our, our military, industrial, uh, complex is doing very well. Marc.
Marc Beckman: Right, so we don't really mind then if these wars keep [00:56:00] occurring overseas, do we.
Georgette Mosbacher: Well, I think the president does, and I think he's been very clear on that. He does not, he, the president doesn't like war. He doesn't like seeing bombs destroy cities and kill people. So I think in our, in, in the case of President Trump, we have a leader who's very clear on this. He doesn't really care as much about the industrial military complex as much as he does care about seeing the death and destruction stop.
Uh, we're still going to be fine. We're still gonna be selling weapons to everyone in the world. Look, I think right now nuclear is about to spread everywhere. Everyone's gonna have a nuclear weapon in the next 20 years, 30 years. Uh, Marc. I think that's inevitable. So I don't think the planet gets any safer.
So I don't think any of our companies are gonna lose business. So whether this, whether we stop, maybe there's a few companies that don't make as much [00:57:00] money as they used to, but big deal. Uh, whether we, the war stops in Ukraine isn't going to, isn't gonna really make a dent in our, our military industrial complex.
The world isn't, isn't getting getting any safer and it's not gonna get safer. So, uh, no, I think President Trump, we have a president that's been very clear. He doesn't like to see the death and destruction. He wants it to stop, and his strength and that message, I do believe makes a difference If he'd been president.
I don't believe there would've been a war in the Ukraine. I absolutely don't. I believe there would not have been a plan that war.
Marc Beckman: agree. Ambassador Mosbacher, thank you so much for all of your time. I can't let you go though. Yet we end the show the same way with every guest. It's, um, a leading question that I provide. And in this instance, I want your prediction. I incorporate the name of the show, Some Future Day, which is a [00:58:00] James Joyce reference by the way. Um. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, if it's all right with you, I'd like to have you participate, but within the context of this Ukraine, Russia war you game.
Georgette Mosbacher: I'm game
Marc Beckman: Alright. So in some future day, Ukraine and Russia will stop fighting. The war will end when.
Georgette Mosbacher: when. Ooh, that's a tough one, isn't it? That's a, that's a tough one. I don't think it's going to end anytime soon. Um, I. I think that we're probably looking at, certainly not within the next 12 months if, if we're lucky before President Trump will be able to end it before his term is up. And I think, I think he can, I think he will accomplish that.
Marc Beckman: What needs to happen? What's gonna, what needs to happen to make that war stop.
Georgette Mosbacher: I think, uh, president Putin has to understand that his, that Europe. [00:59:00] NATO are now really energized and he has what he has created. It's a very formidable, formidable nato. I think that's what President Trump has done, and NATO was really just a, you know, a paper tiger before, but now they're investing. Marc and I think that Trump, uh, has, has, has really energized that.
And I think that Putin now realizes the day he realizes that Europe isn't gonna buy his oil and is literally, um, has the security guarantees in place that he will realize he can't move any further. And it's, this is a time to make, make nice with his neighbors.
Marc Beckman: Ambassador Mosbacher, it's so nice to have you on Some Future Day. Your insight and expert expertise is unparalleled, truly an honor. Thank you [01:00:00] so much.
Georgette Mosbacher: It's always a pleasure because you always get. People's thinking you have a way. Uh, and also you have an incredible talent of getting people to say things. They might never say pol because it's not politically correct. So I'll give you that. But I also am gonna blame you, Marc, when I get beaten over the head with it.
Thank you so much for letting me be a part of your show. Thank you.
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