Some Future Day

Marc: [00:00:00] We have entered a post nuclear warfare period because of AI. When it comes to offensive capability, AI creates new weapons of war, with the biggest being drones. Warfare is
Aviv Shapira: changing, less humans, more machines, and more remote. AI, you know, making decisions at the edge. Being autonomous as much as
Marc: possible.
Yes. That's the future. Most of us are aware of how drones are currently used on the battlefield. A lone human operator drives a drone into enemy territory for the purpose of gathering intelligence. Or to drop a very limited ordinance like a single grenade onto the enemy. Indeed, we have seen this repeatedly in the war between Russia and Ukraine.
However, military futurists are already honing in on the capability of drones to be bolstered to a staggering degree when AI is introduced into the mix. The most talked about is the ability of large [00:01:00] groups of drones to create. Drone swarms. These very large groups of drones would be able to launch coordinated attacks that would overwhelm enemy defenses.
Enter extend
Aviv Shapira: defense. So we've allowed for anyone, basically any untrained operator to actually operate It's a team of drones, so not one, you know, three, five, ten drones together in a complex mission.
Marc: Xtend is a global leader in AI powered autonomy and tactical drone solutions and is already working with the United States Department of Defense.
In fact, a reliable source informed me that it was Xtend's drone that Hamas deployed Terrorist mastermind sin war. Welcome to his living room moments before his own demise. You remember that video extends founder and CEO Aviv Shapira. Join me on this episode of some future day to provide expert [00:02:00] insights surrounding this very fast growing military vertical drones.
Aviv Shapira from extend. It is such a pleasure to see you today. Welcome to some future day. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you, Mark, for having me. Great to be here. Aviv, I really, really have gotten to love you. And one reason is because you have such a eclectic wide range of interests. Your personality is, um, knowledge based in so many different fields.
Um, and something that really gave me a smile is in, in researching and preparing for today's conversation. I saw that you're. Um, people categorize you as an aerospace engineer with two Emmy awards. I would have to say, it's probably fair to assume that you are the only aerospace engineer with [00:03:00] two Emmy awards on the planet.
Is that fair? I'm still looking
Aviv Shapira: for my, for my, um, you know, for my, My mate for my, uh, um, I, you know, I guess it's, it is a bit strange to read it at first, you know, like a rocket scientist with two Emmy awards. Uh, it is what it is, you know, it just means I'm trying to be versatile as much as I can.
Marc: Well, let's get into it though.
The, the Emmy awards came before the rocket scientist piece, correct? Correct.
Aviv Shapira: Yes. So, uh, I, I mean, no, yes and no. So I am, I always loved aviation, uh, ever since I, ever since I remember myself, you know, I was building rocket, uh, rockets, uh, while I was living in the U S I was, you know, I was always into aviation and aerospace engineering and eventually I, I worked in that field as well.
Uh, so I was in the Israeli air force. I was, I worked with some big, some big aerospace and defense companies. Um, The Emmy award came after, right? So after a long career in this space, I decided to, uh, You know, test [00:04:00] my, uh, uh, startup skills to the extreme. So I opened a media company. Uh, we actually invented a new video format that, uh, allowed people to actually teleport themselves into sporting arenas and see the world from different angles.
Marc: Just wait, just wait, wait. Just so I get that right. So people could teleport themselves into sporting arenas. Yeah.
Aviv Shapira: Yeah. Okay. I just want to make sure I'm
Marc: covering that. And you did that with FIFA too, right? Like this wasn't just like small little, um, sporting moments, events and, um, stadiums. This was like major leagues, right?
It was,
Aviv Shapira: it
Marc: was
Aviv Shapira: actually with the biggest leagues, uh, you know, in the world. Let, let, let me show you. I mean, what, what, what do you consider like, like the best sport in the planet?
Marc: I, my favorite sport on the planet is the national hockey league, the NHL.
Aviv Shapira: National hockey league. So if I switch only one letter from a H to F, you have the NFL.
Is that good enough?
Marc: The [00:05:00] NFL is great. Unfortunately, I'm suffering right now because I'm a Giants fan, but let's see it.
Aviv Shapira: So what you're seeing here is, uh, is what we did. Uh, everything you see here is based on a, a volumetric video. So three dimensional. Pixels, uh, being reconstructed in real time in order to actually give you the ability to see the sport from any angle.
Uh, so, so, you know, what you see here is what was seen on television, but imagine putting, you know, like a VR display on your head and seeing the game from any different angles. So this is what I did as, as an aerospace engineer, going back to your, to your question.
Marc: That's where you won your Emmys, right?
This is the space where you won your Emmys.
Aviv Shapira: Yeah. So actually interesting story, but this is me, uh, you know, on the red carpet. Um, uh, you know, unfortunately, every time I came to New York to win an Emmy, I lost, uh, twice, uh, and the only two times we won an Emmy award was when I wasn't there, so I don't know what it means.
That it is what it is.
Marc: Yeah. [00:06:00] Stay out, but it's an incredible, an incredible story because as an entrepreneur, you really built up that company and then flipped it, I believe to Intel for a significant amount of money. So it's not just the, um, critical acclaim, but you actually had commercial, great commercial success too.
Aviv Shapira: Yes. I mean, uh, Intel acquired a replay for roughly 200 million, um, as a VR and AR company. So imagine, you know, you, you place these virtual reality glasses on your head and you find yourself somewhere else and you're in Cowboys venue in real time, uh, whatever. Um, and, uh, and then, uh, I guess, um, you know, from there, we started to build this, uh, new vertical within Intel, making sports more personalized and immersive.
Yeah.
Marc: So it's kind of interesting because I could start to see the line from what you did with volumetrics and then extending into gaming with drones. Right. That was kind of your next step [00:07:00] before extend.
Aviv Shapira: Yeah.
Marc: Correct.
Aviv Shapira: So, um, you know, actually, uh, following, following my, uh, my exit to Intel in a few years there, you telepresence as well.
So how do I. Teleport myself again, but not into a sporting arena. Somewhere, I want to go somewhere real. I actually want to interact with the world. So we decided that robots and drones are the next thing. You know, imagine, you know, going into a drone and flying in the jungle or in a safari in, in, in Africa, you know, being between the animals or just going wherever I want in the world.
And that was, that was everything behind Xtend. This is how everything started for us there. Uh, you know, being, being this, uh, you know, new way of exploring the world, uh, from
Marc: your house, from your computer. A lot of my guests have this common trait. They're very motivated. They're highly successful. They build and flip companies.
They run major companies, you know, all into the billions of dollars. So you go and [00:08:00] you build this company and you flip it for 200 million to Intel. At that point, what is, what are you thinking? Um, you're like, oh, we could go ahead now and, um, have a, we could transport into, you know, a different environment, but you could have just Taken that money off the table and transported yourself and your family physically onto a beach somewhere and called it called it the day.
So what is that unique trait that you have as an individual that creates the fire that motivates you? Like, why not just hang it up at that point? I mean, it's super successful already. Why did you keep going? What's the unique trait that you have that inspires you to continue to build?
Aviv Shapira: I think I'm not the only one who says that, but, uh, entrepreneurs, uh, have that in their genes, in their, in their body, in their, in their blood, you know, uh, I personally started my first, uh, startup, my first, my first business when I was 10 years old.
Um, my parents bought me like this, uh, like this parakeet, like a parrot. And I said, you know, I don't, I don't understand what am I [00:09:00] supposed to do with it? So I bought another one and I started to breed them. I had like hundreds of parrots. Yeah, I had like hundreds of birds in my yard and I just started to sell them all over the country.
At some point, at some point I was the biggest supplier of parrots in the, in the center of Israel. Um, and, and, you know, it's, it's, I don't understand why I'm doing it. It's definitely not for the money. You know, it's not that it's, uh, it's about innovating. It's about creating new, new things. Um, and definitely it's not the last, last, uh, startup.
Uh, it's number four for me today. Um, definitely there will be a number five and six.
Marc: Aviv, do you think entrepreneurship is something that is innate? This, this thing that you're talking about, this motivating factor, is it innate or is it something that one can learn?
Aviv Shapira: Uh, definitely one can learn. Uh, I mean, we all learn every day.
I'm, I'm also trying to learn every day in my life. Um, I guess, um, you know, the number [00:10:00] one, Characteristic that, that, uh, describes a good entrepreneur is, uh, is not, uh, is not how good, uh, is with finding ideas. It's not how good he executes ideas. It's, uh, how good, um, uh, you know, that person deals with, uh, With all of the problems and all of the walls that are, um, faced in front of him, you know, every, every time you try to build a startup or an, or try to execute an idea, you get the answer, no, or, you know, someone, someone is going to do this better than you, or someone is, you know, someone already thought about this idea, or you're not going to be able to do it, or you know, there's regulation, there's not enough money for you to, so there's enough excuses to give, you know, as an answer and the ability to, um, you know, to listen, to not, not do your head and then continue.
You know, uh, when people shut down the door, I go from the window. That's the number one characteristic that we need as entrepreneurs.
Marc: Well, that resilience though, it doesn't sound like that's [00:11:00] something you can necessarily learn in, you know, academia. The other thing is, um, drive, right? So I, I understand. I heard Elon say that he works about 120 hours a week.
There are only 168 hours in a week. So how many hours a week are you working right now as you're, you know, You're building extend. I mean, you're getting so much momentum. So are you in that 120 hour a week range as well? You know, first of all,
Aviv Shapira: I hope I want my, my, if one of my, my, when my wife, uh, Lila watches this, she doesn't, uh, doesn't know, but when I go to sleep, I give myself like, uh, at least one challenge I have to solve by the time I wake up in the morning during my dreams.
So I don't know if that counts as hours, but I guess, uh, you know, practically I work, you know, between, uh, 12 to 15 hours. Uh, every day. Um, and, um, and, and, and there is, there is a great book I recommend [00:12:00] called outliers and it actually describes that good, uh, good entrepreneurs and people actually made, uh, made the change in the world and actually, you know, made, did big things, uh, worked in, in their domain for 10, 000 hours.
Many, many examples from tennis players to people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. So I think, um, you know, it doesn't matter how smart you are and how good of an entrepreneur you are. You still have to invest these hours. Um, if, if, if, if you go in and watch Netflix all day, you're probably not going to make it.
Marc: Where's the last time you watched Netflix?
Aviv Shapira: Um, so I actually try to watch, uh, or do, you know, like, uh, uh, go on a date with my wife at least once a week. So I don't know if it counts, but, uh, I have a date once a week. There you go. I'm not allowed to work during that.
Marc: So she shuts you down. Let's let's focus though on, on this new, um, endeavor, this new enterprise extend.
I mean, you're really, really, uh, killing it again. [00:13:00] It's incredible. It's described as a global leader in AI powered autonomy and tactical drone solutions extend as a global leader in AI powered autonomy and tactical drone solutions of Eve, what does this mean?
Aviv Shapira: Yeah, what are you talking about? For the average layperson,
Marc: for the person watching this right now, what does that mean?
Aviv Shapira: Now, I will explain, I will explain. Okay, so I'm sure that most of the people watching this have seen a drone fly or flown a drone themselves, and they've probably noticed that it's not that trivial. to tell the drone left and right and up and bottom to actually make it do complex things or actually work in complex environments.
So what, what we've done, um, in the past, uh, five years, a long time. Um, and let me share my screen as I talk. So we've allowed, um, for any, anyone, Basically any untrained, uh, operator to actually operate [00:14:00] a, a team of drones. So not one, you know, 3, 5, 10 drones together in a complex mission. Um, so the way the way we do this is we actually, we don't allow them to, uh, uh, fly and control these drones manual.
So, so for example, if you want to go through a window, you don't maneuver the drone left and right and forward. The only thing you do is point at the window. That's it. Um, and, and because it's that easy to operate, uh, this, this, uh, software, we call it an operating system, unlocks many, many, many things that were not possible until today.
Uh, for example, uh, flying inside a building, um, you know, inspecting, uh, you know, a tunnel or a pipe, uh, flying, you know, between buildings underneath trees, things that were not possible until today, just because of how hard it was to fly these drones. Um, so this is like, uh, uh, very, very shortly, um, uh, you know, what we do.
Marc: Well, [00:15:00] I know you're not at liberty to disclose this, but it's well established in some circles that your technology, Xtend's technology, was the drone that, uh, flew in and took that iconic video of the Hamas leader, the Hamas terrorist, Sinwar, um, moments before his demise, uh, Um, I'm not going to ask you to comment on that, but what I would like to do is, um, certainly break down some of the components that you just shared as it relates to defining what an AI powered autonomy and tactical drone is.
So for example, you started talking about the fact that there's a unified controller, um, that there's that, that. It's capable of almost driving itself to the window, if I understand correctly. You said if, if the drone needs to go through the window, there's a certain amount of human guidance, but it seems like this vehicle is, um, this robot [00:16:00] is driving itself into the window.
Am I correct in understanding
Aviv Shapira: that? You're correct. And I'll show you, I'll show you a visual example, right? So let's, let us assume, um, You want to fly into this building. Okay. So traditionally, you would, uh, need to, uh, maneuver the drone, you know, a bit left and then right. And then, you know, hope that you're not going to hit that wall.
So use AI not as a buzzword, but really is a feature that really helps the user navigate. So the first thing we do is detect, you know, what, what, what can I do as a, as, as an operator. So in this case, uh, the system recognizes openings in the building. Okay. That's very simple. Then the only thing I need to do as an operator, I basically select the relevant window and boom, I'm there.
I'm inside. Uh, this is an example from, uh, the Turkey earthquake, uh, last year. So again, so the, the system lets you, you [00:17:00] know, it gives you like a menu of things you can actually do. So, you know, you're, I'm moving the, you know. In this crack. I'm moving into this window. Um, and that actually makes the whole operation is very, very, very simple.
Now, on top of that, we added layers of AI. So let's say I want to recognize the face. I want to, you know, understand that this is a car. This is a motorcycle. So everything's built around AI and around the user to actually allow him to to conduct, you know, like a very complex mission, uh, with zero training from anywhere in the world.
Marc: Okay. So, so that's your advantage, right? Like there are tons of companies popping up and using artificial intelligence to create drones. But one big point of difference, one advantage for Xtend is the fact that, um, the, the human does not have to have military experience. They can, um, have very limited, um, training and.
Like minimal training and limited experience. And the other piece that I understand is [00:18:00] that the individual could be any place in the world. So I could be operating the drone from my living room and the drone could be operating in, I could be guiding the drone from my living room in New York city, but yet the drone could be in Paris.
Is that right? Exactly,
Aviv Shapira: exactly like that. And you can, by the way, um, I, I, I, I think that, uh, it's important to say that a lot of companies have been trying to go all the way to fully autonomous systems. Same as, uh, in, you know, in, in the car industry. Uh, people try to develop autonomous cars that, that are fully autonomous and drive in the streets of New York, and you still don't see that happening because the real world environments are not that, uh, um, you know, trivial.
They're not, uh, I would say repetitive. And things happen, you know, you cannot really foresee everything. And this is why you need AI combined with people. And that interface, we call it human machine teaming. Is what makes us special. So how can I actually orchestrate a team of drones and robots in a very complex environment using [00:19:00] autonomous technology?
So this is, uh, this is exactly what we do. And I think it's, it's the only practical way to actually. Uh, you know, operating this environment and especially in defense and homelands, homeland security.
Marc: If you also use the term of art in describing this, you use the word specifically swarm. Can you explain what that means and also how artificial intelligence is used to allow for the drones to interact together when they're in that swarm mode?
Aviv Shapira: Yeah. So, uh, you know, a swarm is, uh, has, uh, I would say a negative effect in the industry, you know, like, uh, uh, thousands of drones trying to kill someone and suiciding. Uh, for us, the swarm is, uh, is a group of robots and drones that operate together and actually help one another. So I want to take you to a different space.
Let's, let's, you know, let's, let's take a, and I, I'll try to search for an example to show you. Let's talk about, uh, uh, search and rescue. So imagine you have, uh, [00:20:00] like five or 10 or even 20 drones flying above buildings and inside buildings. And once one of them finds You know, uh, someone that has to be rescued the all the other drones know about it.
So the information is actually sent between them. It's like, it's like, uh, our, you know, it's like our computers are in our, in our, in our, in our phones are connected in this Ethernet in this, uh, you know, wireless connectivity. This is the same that our drones operate in. So there's a network of drones and robots that operate together as a swarm.
We actually call it a team. Uh, it's a nicer word for it and they help one another. In
Marc: Star Trek, I think they referred to it as the Borg.
Aviv Shapira: Um, yeah, I can, I, I should start calling it the Borg, but, uh, but you know, I'll, I'll, I'll try to show you an example where. Where we actually, uh, you know, went out for an expedition to, uh, I don't know if you saw this one, um, trying to, uh, save people in the earthquake in Turkey, [00:21:00] um, in this example, uh, all of the drones operated together as a team.
In this case, I think we had like, uh, 12 or 15 of them together. Um, the, the idea basically is that, uh, some of them fly outdoors, some of them fly indoors, and all of them operate different types of, uh, all of them fly different types of, uh, uh, applications. So what you're seeing now is an application that looks for people.
So this square that you see is an AI application. Uh, it found a 60 year old woman, which was later saved about an hour later by the search and rescue personnel.
Marc: Um, congratulations. That's super incredible. And you know, when you talk about using drones to save lives, using swarms for search and rescue missions, obviously that's.
Exceedingly time sensitive. Right. And one of the features of your technology that really caught my attention is that your drones are really fast, man. They are like super fast. I read that they go up to, um, 300 column [00:22:00] kilometers per hour for those in America. That's almost 200 miles per hour. Right. So, so is that a difficult feat?
Is it tough to, to have them operating at such a high speed? And is, and does that. Somehow hurt their accuracy.
Aviv Shapira: So I, I, I would say other companies can fly that fast. It's, it's a physical, you know, you, you select the right motors and the right battery and you fly that fast. Uh, but then again, others, uh, the only thing they do is, is fly between waypoint, waypoint A and B and C.
So, you know, an automatic flight between waypoints, um, because it's so easy to fly, like we saw before, what you can actually do is allow a human to actually control these drones in these very, very fast, uh, uh, flights. Um, so we actually took that capabilities, uh, and started to, uh, do air defense, uh, today in Israel and in the U S we were doing, um, uh, it's called the hard kill air defense versus drone threats.
So if it's a UAV, if it's a quadcopter coming to, you know, to our, [00:23:00] uh, base, to our stadium, you know, across the border, we use very, very fast drones to intercept them. Um, it's, it's a fully autonomous system, but the only thing the human does is, you know, select targets, you know, avoid hitting things like, uh, birds or other elements in skies.
Um, so that's, uh, it is, it is something we've mastered as a company. And that's also thanks to the operating system that makes everything very, very easy to operate.
Marc: Well, you say that so calm, but like, how, how's, how does the execution take place? So the drone is, is identifying this, um, object that's infiltrating the airspace.
Right. And then is the drone attacking that object? Is it actually launching something at it?
Aviv Shapira: Um, I'll show you an example. So, uh, this is actually together with our partners, uh, in, in the U S um, so in this example, In this example, we had, uh, uh, 40, uh, drones, DJI drones that we had to intercept [00:24:00] and the drone that intercepts them is, uh, is, is, is one that can fly, um, not 300.
This is like, uh, 150 kilometers per hour. Um, the funny thing here is that we actually let our, our, our, um, Uh, you know, end users in the U. S. Department of Defense actually fly these drones and intercept during the trial itself. And the reason why this is the number is 44 because four of them actually survived the crash.
So we had to, you know, then again, take them off and intercept them. So this is an example of, uh, a drone that uses a net to intercept other drones. Other models that we have are kinetic, so they have explosive devices that exploded the right moment in time.
Marc: Aviv, what do you see as the future as it relates to that?
Is it all going to be explosive? Um, I
Aviv Shapira: think for defense applications, it, it will probably be mostly explosive, but, uh, you know, if you have, uh, you know, like a MLB venue, um, [00:25:00] you know, and the drone is coming to, uh, try to hurt people or just take four photographs, um, we know that cyber technology is not good enough today, uh, just because some of these drones fly without communications.
Um, we also fly without communications, but, uh, I would say that, uh, intercepting drones like that, uh, requires a hard kill solution. So you need a type, you need a type of net or something that will actually capture them, um, and take them to safety. And, and, and, you know, intercepting with them with explosives is not gonna fly with the local, uh, Municipalities.
Marc: Yeah, I guess that makes sense, right? I guess that makes sense because I'm only thinking in like the field of war, but you're talking about protecting civilians at sporting events, at theater, mass gatherings, concerts, right? It goes way beyond what my little feeble mind is thinking, right?
Aviv Shapira: Yeah. In the last two years, we've seen drones, both quadcopters and fixed wings start to fly without comms and without GPS.
So imagine [00:26:00] this piece of metal flying in the skies. You know, you cannot really jam it, uh, spoof it, you have to somehow kill it, you know, shoot it somehow with a laser, with a gun, with a drone. So we are developing these, you know, we call it defectors. So drone versus drone that actually go and hit them and intercept them.
Um, this is, this has been a big part of, uh, you know, the conflict here in Israel in
Marc: the past, uh, 12 months. Well, that's really interesting, but you know, to stay focused on the United States and, um, your comment earlier as to what it means to be entrepreneurial, to have that drive, to be successful. I don't think that there's any higher, um, acclaim for an item like this.
Then, uh, the fact that the United States department of defense recently awarded extend a contract to deliver hundreds of precision strike indoor and outdoor systems. Um, P. S. I. O. S. What is a P. S. I. O. System? And why is that important [00:27:00] right now? Um,
Aviv Shapira: so a P. S. I. O. P. S. I. O. Stands for precision strike indoor outdoor.
Uh, we did that in partnership with an office called I. W. T. S. D. Under the pentagon, um, and that is the first, uh, product in the market to actually allow for, uh, us, uh, soldiers, um, you know, if it's so calm or if it's army or navy or air force to actually work and operate a loitering munition drone. Now, a loitering munition drone is a drone that can actually carries explosives and that actually replaces soldiers in the field of battle instead of going there physically and doing, you know, um, doing dangerous missions and risking their lives.
You can actually send a drone to do the job for you. Um, so I'm happy to say, you know, we're probably one of the first in this category that already passed. All the regulations, all the safety boards and, and that's, uh, that's something that, uh, [00:28:00] um, you know, took us a few good years to do, uh, with a lot of technology and obviously a lot of operational experience from other conflicts.
Marc: So Aviv, does that mean that armies of the future will be without human soldiers?
Aviv Shapira: Uh, that's our vision. Uh, but like, uh, like we have humans, you know, supervising the drones, you would, you would probably still have soldiers, uh, on the ground. Uh, we'll, we're doing our best to replace most of the difficult missions with drones and robots.
And, you know, today we have, uh, uh, both crews. Ground air and maritime solutions in extent. And we are mostly focused on aerial solutions like drones. Uh, but we see, you know, a huge demand for, uh, you know, unmanned surface vehicles, boats, submarines, ground vehicles, and specifically, uh, ground, um, you know, uh, dogs, um, you know, things like Boston dynamics and others have been very, very, um, needed.
In, in different, [00:29:00] different markets and different applications. And obviously they have, you know, much more battery. They can run for hours. They can carry much more. So that's also very important.
Marc: Well, how long does, I guess that begs the question, right? Like how long can one of your drones, um, Operate now, um, like, like what's the flying time?
How far can they go? How far is the distance? If I want to launch one of your drones from New York City and attack in Westchester, can I, can I, can I, if I want to attack in Boston, can I, if I want to attack, you know, Canada, can I? Hopefully you're
Aviv Shapira: not going to attack these places, but, uh, but no, there's no limitation for a distance.
We've actually operated, uh, drones quadcopters from 9, 000 kilometers away in the past. Uh, so the drones have, uh, you know, your, your normal Starlink or 5g 4g connectivity. Um, and, and you basically operate them from anywhere you want. You just need to connect to them, uh, somewhere, you know, open, uh, [00:30:00] um, you know, a portal in your, in your Google Chrome or whatever.
Um, and, and you can, you can operate them anywhere. So this then doesn't really matter if you're asking, if you're asking about the physical flight time, uh, it depends on the drones. We, we work with any drone platform with any ground robots. So we cannot, we can, you know, our, our operating system can actually be used, uh, almost anywhere.
Marc: So I'm sure you heard they're like all these drones being identified. They're flying right here outside of above New Jersey, um, and people are speculating they're Chinese drones. They're, they're not friendly drones in your, um, in your mind. Do you think it's possible that these are actually, um, like foreign governments coming in and spying on, on American installations?
Uh, the answer is, the
Aviv Shapira: answer is yes and no, that they're definitely Chinese drones because this is what people buy at best, at best buy, you know, people buy DJI. So they are Chinese. Um, if they spy on you, um, I don't know the answer to that. You know, [00:31:00] some people online say that, uh, there's a backdoor, um, to China and every video that you, That you take is there in the servers of China.
Uh, I can't comment. I don't really know the answer to that. Uh, but definitely it's, uh, it is something we are trying to do. You know, we are, we are a U S company, so we are trying to, uh, um, you know, produce, uh, us, uh, drones in the U S, um, you know, without any backdoors. Uh, everything is cyber assessed and everything is, is, you know, good, good
Marc: to go.
So, you know, I can't help obviously like I'm hung up in the drama of these new spying machines, these new killing machines. But in sitting down with you before today's show, most of our conversation was focused on how these new these new Machines are providing for safety and security, and I want to give you an opportunity.
I know you touched on it a little bit, but I'd like to give you an opportunity to, like, really [00:32:00] unpack that more. I mean, from your perspective, this isn't really about spying and killing. There's a lot more here. That's important as it relates to safety and security. So, um, why don't you talk about that side of of these machines?
Aviv Shapira: Um, so everyone thinks the drones are being used in defense, you know, to help soldiers and such. Uh, there are two very, actually three, uh, great, um, I just said markets next to defense. One of them is, uh, one of them is obviously public safety. So allowing police officer and, uh, and firemen. You know, to, to go into buildings, um, you know, to always be in front, uh, of, of, of the security personnel to, you know, to, to de risk their, their operations.
Uh, so people also see some of that on the streets. Uh, the other two markets, which are less, uh, um, known are, are private security. So we all know, you know, there are security guards, uh, if it's in, uh, you know, [00:33:00] if it's, uh, you know, in banks, in shopping malls, whatever, um, we believe that, uh, this, uh, You know, this market of, of, of security guards is, um, is a problematic one.
You know, salaries are going up. Uh, the world is getting more and more dangerous and there is a need for technology to replace, uh, these, these, uh, personnel or at least help them. Uh, so we've been working in this space, um, not, not necessarily drones, by the way, more ground and robotics, uh, to actually, uh, replace these human security guards in, in, in some places, obviously remote places where you don't really need to interact with people all the time.
But, uh, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't guard like a government building with this, but definitely on remote sites that need the 24 hour surveillance. Uh, these drones and robots can actually replace, uh, humans. Um, and the last one is search and rescue. You know, you saw an example from Turkey, but, uh, it's, it's, you know, the world is What's happening with the climate changes, you see more [00:34:00] landslides, more hurricanes, more earthquakes.
Uh, we need more and more technology to save people in all of these horrible places. And I myself participated in, you know, in earthquake in Turkey, but we also participated in the last hurricane, uh, you know, uh, on the East coast of the U S uh, I think a few weeks ago. Uh, we help save people. Um, and, um, I think that's, uh, that's, that's, that's an amazing place.
I would like to participate in and scale as much as I can and help.
Marc: Yeah, that's a beautiful and necessary thing for sure. Um, but going back to my little minor obsession with regards to the art of war, I write about in my new book, this. Evolution of weaponry and war coming, like kind of like post nuclear and moving into drones and the efficiencies that are built from drones for small nations in particular, um, time and expenses are incredible.
I analogize in my book, the idea [00:35:00] of, you know, a big, a big. Military force, like America, it's almost like a tanker at a macro level, right? Like we have all this machinery, we have all of these, um, individual soldiers, but we move, we have to move very slowly compared to like what drones bring now to a smaller nation state, um, where they're almost like a speedboat.
So do you see like the art of war fundamentally changing in like a post nuclear time period? And, and if so, how do you see that? How do you see that unpacking?
Aviv Shapira: I think I think the background for a traditional tanks and jets and both big, you know, weapon, uh, vessels, um, are there because the people making the decisions are, you know, ex pilots, ex admirals from the, from the Navy.
Um, by the way, this is a, this is a global, global thing, right? Um, when you, when you think about it, um, so, you know, people who served, uh, An infantry and had, uh, tanks are now in command, so they [00:36:00] buy more tanks, right? This is the way it goes. Um, you don't really see generals that come from, uh, the space of AI, right?
And robotics. And this is why, uh, I know Elon Musk said a few weeks ago that he doesn't understand why we're, we, we keep on budgeting, uh, fighter aircrafts. Um, you know, it doesn't make sense to have a human flying in the sky, 3000 kilometers per hour with all of these. You know, uh, suits and, and, and, uh, EMI protections and everything around the human where you can actually build an unmanned aircraft that does, does it much better.
Uh, so definitely the world is going to, to unmanned with time it will happen. Um, and, um, and, and it became, it became much, uh, Easier now to actually build these robots and drones, you know, the, the go to market is now, you know, you can open a company or open a small business and within one year, you can have your own drones, your own robots and they operate, [00:37:00] um, you know, the, the, the barrier of entry is very, very small compared to building a jet.
Um, so we, you know, we understand that, uh, and this is why, uh, extend that became a software company. Um, so we power these, these, these drones, we power these robots to actually operate together, operate as a team, operate, uh, you know, very easily for anyone to operate in complex environments, uh, but, you know, just, just to summarize, uh, warfare is changing less humans, more machines.
remote, uh, AI, you know, making decisions at the edge, being autonomous as much as possible. Yes. That's the future.
Marc: Aviv, will the world be a more dangerous place because of drones?
Aviv Shapira: Uh, it will be, uh, it will be a sinus effect, you know, it will be more dangerous until we come up with the antidotes and with, you know, protecting it, and then it's like cyber, you know, uh, one day the enemy wins one day we win.
[00:38:00] Um, so, um, I think, you know, I'm happy to, to be on the good side of the world, um, and, uh, trying to protect, you know, the allies, countries, allies, other countries of the U. S. Uh, but we see very, very complex technologies and advanced technology coming from our, uh, um, you know, enemies out there, uh, which are harder and harder to actually defeat.
So we work very hard
Marc: to do that. The other thing that's interesting that we'll have to shift also, like my background as an attorney, um, has me focus on, um, international laws of war and issues of ethics. So. I'm not sure artificial intelligence will allow for those unique situations, um, that arise on, you know, in the, in the, uh, war playing field, um, AI, I don't think we'll be able to, like, make an ethical decision.
I'm curious as to what you think. Like, [00:39:00] for example, I heard Paul Shari, who's a, um, former U. S. military fought in Afghanistan. He told the story about, you know, Well, first of all, the, the, the laws of war effectively, um, don't cover the international laws, don't cover how old an individual needs to be. Um, but rather what the threat is, the perceived threat from the individual.
So apparently like he and his, um, military colleagues were, um, in Afghanistan fighting and, and they saw a young girl, a girl that was below the age of 18 and she was spying on them. And watching them and they were watching her and they didn't do anything and then she disappeared. And shortly thereafter, I guess, like a group of Taliban soldiers came to attack and they took out the Taliban, right?
But they never took her out. And I wonder, and he challenges, he poses this question, like, will, would artificial intelligence, would a drone have said she's [00:40:00] spying and therefore she's conducting the thing? You know, something that an act that's within the ethics of war, like they could have shot her. They could have taken her out, but they decided not to.
Would the drone, would the robot have taken her out? Um, you know, so I think the laws, the ethics and the laws are going to shift a little bit. I don't know if you've given some thought to these types of situations and. You know, beyond that, like, can AI solve those issues? Will AI distinguish of like, Oh, maybe we shouldn't kill this kid, even though the kid is creating a threat to our military.
Um, or do they just boom, take them out?
Aviv Shapira: Yeah. So first of all, it's not only that we thought about it. Um, I want to share with you our vision as a company, right? So it's, it, this is, this is the first thing that I, that I, that I present when I, when I talk about Xtend, this is, this is what I wake up in the morning.
So, you know, believing in a safer world. Powered by AI. Yes. Like you said, powered by AI, but so far supervised by humans. Um, so this is our, [00:41:00] this is our, this is what we believe in. This is, uh, who we are. Um, and, and yes, AI can be, uh, can be bad, right? AI is probably if you, if you give it a free hand, you will probably do things which you were not expecting, not for, not for a good cause.
And this is why we always have a human supervisor. It's part of who we are. It's part of the future of robotics, and this is why it's such important to, uh, um, you know, to, to, to scale this, uh, you know, AI combined with humans, like we call it before human machine teaming. Otherwise, uh, you know, we can, we can, we can, uh, make, uh, or, you know, um, you know, we can make a very big mistake, uh, to, uh, for where this is going for humanities, going with robotics as, as specifically with defense applications.
Marc: Yeah, but surely, I mean, you know, the way the world is, um, surely, um, the, the bad actors are not going to really include the supervised by [00:42:00] humans component that you're talking about. They won't care. Right. And that's just the reality. Um, here's an interesting fact. Fortune Business Insights, uh, Um, says that the military robots, the military robots market cap is going to hit 26 billion in just two years from now in 2027.
So I'm curious, um, which region of the world will benefit most from that growth.
Aviv Shapira: They say that the US military government is, uh, is bigger than the entire world combined. Um, we, we, we find that, uh, it's, it's true, but because of what's happening right now in Europe, um, it's not, not true anymore. I would say maybe it's 30%.
You know, countries like Poland, uh, obviously Ukraine, you know, all the countries around Ukraine specifically, even Finland and, uh, um, you know, Denmark, we're seeing, you know, Germany, we're seeing defense budgets are. You know, doubling, uh, in some countries. [00:43:00] Um, so it's, it's global focused on Eastern Europe and the U S markets.
Marc: Yeah, it's really, it's really amazing. Um, how, like how big of a role is artificial intelligence in, um, building the momentum, the momentum for that growth. In other words, if a particular region or entity is excelling quicker, At developing a, um, very smart AI. If they're training AI in a better way, does that allow for the entire ecosystem of hardware to benefit from that too, or is there a deficit with regards to hardware with the physical drone or the physical robot and the AI has already surpassed it?
Like what's the tension. What's the balance there between, um, the AI, the artificial intelligence learning and the hardware that's available?
Aviv Shapira: You know, I've actually seen, uh, programs that, uh, design your, your, you know, your [00:44:00] chipsets. I've seen AI applications that program your code. Um, so that means that, uh, you know, the, the barrier to actually Develop weapons is now much easier.
I mean, anyone can open GPT, right? Or another tool and, and design a weapon. Now, just think about it. How, how, how crazy is that now? The, the balance to your question. No, today, today, AI is still a buzzword. I think still, uh, I mean, everyone is using it at some point. Like you saw, we were using it as well, but it's not yet, um, replacing soldiers.
It's not yet, uh, You know, like removing tanks and, and jet fighters from the, from the field, but it's getting, this is where it's going. Um, AI fighting AI. Can you imagine that?
Marc: So break that down a little bit. What does that mean? AI fighting AI? I mean, if you have a situation where, um, human supervisors are in a remote location, you're [00:45:00] nowhere near the, the, the battlefield, um, and you have AI fighting against AI, is that creating just like some level of, um, a detente?
Like what, like what, what does that mean exactly?
Aviv Shapira: Um, it's the first time I'm saying that, so I can, I can, and I can, I would say that, you know, they, they will keep on fighting one another until, uh, I feel, I feel, you know, we've all seen Terminator, right? Until someone goes and takes out the plug and kills the servers, right?
So, um, there's a famous quote by Albert Einstein, you know, everyone is asking him, you know, how is, uh, the third world war is going to look like. He says, uh, do you know this quote? He says, I'm not sure about the third world war, but the fourth one will be done, will be, will be fought by, uh, sticks and stones.
Um, so eventually, you know, eventually, uh, we understand that, uh, AI is, uh, very dangerous when, uh, when you give it the opportunity to, [00:46:00] uh, go into defense. And I'm happy to say that we are a very ethical company. I'm sure that every other company in the U S like us is ethical, but unfortunately our, our enemies, um, um, might be doing things that, uh, are unpredictable and we're going to have to, uh, you know, Keep on, uh, being very, very creative, uh, to win like we, like we've always done.
Marc: So in thinking about that Albert Einstein quote a little bit more, like, what is it about the human condition that we want to fight so badly? We want to kill each other so badly that we're willing to like, basically knock ourselves back into the stone age. What's wrong with us?
Aviv Shapira: Um, I think that everyone has a different, uh, interest, right?
So, uh, you know, the U S is trying to make the world safer. trying to guard its interests, if it's fossils, if it's, uh, different borders, um, you know, Ukraine, [00:47:00] um, again, uh, if you look at, uh, you know, the reasons for the war, is it, is it a natural resources? Is it, uh, you know, a crazy, uh, Or someone who is just trying to conquer the world.
So, um, I w I would think that, uh, I would think that in the future, uh, this is my prediction only, right. Um, with the, with the global warming, um, more and more people and countries will actually fight to survive. And, you know, just, just, just to, uh. You know, I've, I've seen some very, very, uh, disturbing, uh, statistics about, uh, even in the U S, you know, in California, where they used to, uh, have like X amount of, uh, homegrown fruits and vegetables.
And suddenly it's almost all gone and they're importing everything from outside. So, um, so today, you know, people are fighting for fuel and the next future is going to be, it's going to be for food and water.
Marc: Aviv, your, your drones are [00:48:00] interesting because they actually are tried and true in the field, right?
Whether it's search and rescue or, or war, whatever it might be. Um, so it's very practical, right? Your technology is being used in a very, very practical way. Current way, uh, what do you anticipate it looking like or evolving to in 12 months and 18 months in five years? It's got to be like mind blowing, right?
Aviv Shapira: So we were working on 33 vectors very, very hard. One is that one user, one operating system can control. Any robot, any drone. Um, so today, robots and drones can do something. One thing very, very well, but they suck at everything else. You know, delivery drone cannot fly inside a building, for example. Um, so that's one unified controller for the whole fleet of tools you have.
The second is applications. We understand like like Apple and Google did. We're not the smartest people on the planet. So other people develop applications for us. So we have something called the extend app store. [00:49:00] It's still not as evolved and developed as we would like it to be. Um, and the last thing is a remote.
We are today, uh, one of the most advanced companies for remote operations. So, you know, operating people, like you mentioned from your house in New York, all the way to Brazil, whatever. So that's, that's the future of robotics in the next few years to come.
Marc: Aviv, which, um, region of the world, which country do you think is really at the forefront of drones, specifically right now?
Where does the United States sit as it relates to maybe some, a country like China or Russia?
Aviv Shapira: Um, definitely China is the most advanced. Um
Marc: In the world?
Aviv Shapira: Yes, definitely. 100%. Uh, not only, not only drones, uh, most, uh, unmanned systems. Then I would say, uh, um, you know, the U. S. is probably the next one, coupled with, uh, you know, we, we, we are a U.
S. company, but we have very smart people in Israel. [00:50:00] So, um, you know, we're keeping that balance between being a U. S. company with, uh, an R and D in Israel. Um, um, you know, there's very, very talented people in Ukraine. One of the reasons why they're very good at what they do is because they have to survive.
Then they, you know, they want to wake up for another day. So they, they, they are innovating, you know, all day long just to survive, just to make sure they have bread on the table. Um, not bread on the table, so they can breathe, you know? Um, This is this is this is how you uh this is how i see um you know the powers of the world today
Marc: every guest i have on some future day starts a works with me to finish the show basically what i do is i start a sentence which incorporates the name of the show and lead and then my guest finishes the sentence are you game i'm game okay.
In some future day, [00:51:00] drones will revolutionize the way the world functions by
Aviv Shapira: Allow, allow us as humans, as operators to, um, stay safe, stay alive and, uh, go instead of us into dangerous places, search people, uh, in, in horrible events, replace us as soldiers, replace us as security operators, and basically make the world safer.
Marc: Aviv, thank you so much for joining me today on some future day. It's really been a pleasure talking to you. Same here. Thank you, Mark. I know your time is very important, so thank you so much for joining me today. For ongoing insights surrounding these important topics, you can join the conversation on my social media channels, including Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Mark Beckman.
And to sign up for my newsletter on Substack, you can find me at [00:52:00] markbeckman. substack. com. To make sure you don't miss a show, be sure to subscribe to Some Future Day across all major platforms worldwide, including YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. Special thanks to New York University for producing Some Future Day and a big shout out to my producer extraordinaire, John Boomhoffer, for being patient and always encouraging me to push through.
Thanks a lot, John. Have a great day.