Some Future Day

Closing the Digital Divide: Artificial Intelligence, Cryptocurrency, and Financial Access | with Clyde Vanel

[00:02:18] All right. It's great to see you today. I'm so happy to welcome New York State Assemblyman Clyde Vanel to Some Future Day. It's honestly a pleasure and an honor to meet you. I think we got to start. You and I have some things in common. I don't even know if we landed on this.

[00:02:36] Like, you're Boston University alumni for law. I went to law school out on Long Island, but I'm Boston University alumni for undergrad.

[00:02:44] Oh, wow, I did not know that. Oh, my goodness. Did you live on campus or not? Did you live on campus?

[00:02:49] on campus for a little bit, then I moved off campus. my roommates and I burned an apartment down, so we lived in, Howard Johnson's in Kenmore Square for a little while, if you remember that place, with our

[00:03:00] of course.

[00:03:02] yeah, so that's cool, we're both terriers, and then the other thing I found, really interesting is that I know you're a true renaissance man, you have your own law firm, you're in government, and you, for a while, Owned and operated a bar down on, in Manhattan in the village or the Lower East Side.

[00:03:23] So I'm, yeah, I'm crazy enough to be an attorney that's a member of the bar and I owned a bar. so yeah, I owned a bar and a restaurant in the Lower East Side. Did that for about six years. It's crazy enough to get to that job and I, in that position and I did it for passive income. I opened up a restaurant, Mark, for passive income.

[00:03:42] How crazy is that?

[00:03:44] You have a, you're obviously a glutton for punishment and, reciprocally, when I was in undergrad, I think the reason I went to law school is because when I was in Boston, I was promoting a lot of the bars and restaurants on Lansdowne. So

[00:03:54] Oh, wow. Oh, my

[00:03:55] I went to law school to, like, recover from that experience.

[00:04:00] Amazing. the other thing that I think is really cool about you is your jurisdiction, including Hollis, Queens, isn't that... Where Run DMC is from originally.

[00:04:09] Well, now you want to talk about hip hop credentials. So we have, of course, Run D. M. C. 's from there. We have a lot of the hip hop legends, you know, from Southeast Queens. You can't forget LL Cool J, Tribe Called Quest, 50 Cent from not too far. So, you know, a lot of hip hop. and this year, we're celebrating, the world is celebrating hip hop's 50th anniversary.

[00:04:32] So, yeah, very excited to be from the area where I'm from.

[00:04:35] So, you're telling me, I didn't realize this, so LL and Tribe are also from your jurisdiction?

[00:04:40] A hundred percent. The

[00:04:42] my God,

[00:04:43] Yes,

[00:04:44] that's amazing. So what are you doing to celebrate hip hop's 50th anniversary?

[00:04:49] actually, there's a lot going on in the culture and a lot going on in New York City. as a matter of fact, this weekend is a concert called Rock the Bells. It's like the Woodstock of hip hop that's happening, on Saturday all day at the Forest Hill Stadium, where they'll have, they'll be performances throughout.

[00:05:07] And there are a lot of. Free concerts around the city, moving forward. So there's a, I don't even want to name them because there's so many, off the top of my head. But you'll see a lot of, tributes and performances and, and, and many different events, commemorating this 50th, anniversary of hip hop.

[00:05:28] Clyde, what about, the old school guys? Will they be there? Like Grandmaster Flash and you know, like go all the way back.

[00:05:35] that is who's going to be there, brother. The old school guy is going to be there. The headliner, I believe, is going to be Rakim. and, Big Daddy Kane are gonna be performing, so it's gonna be,

[00:05:45] I'm gonna make sure I have my, you know, my, my Puma Clydes on and, you know, really celebrating and, you know, really, celebrating and honoring the, you know, an art form that was born and bred out of the streets of, New York.

[00:06:02] One controversial thing is where hip hop was born. The people in the Bronx say it's from the Bronx. I say it's from Queens, but it doesn't matter. It came out of New York City and we're excited about it.

[00:06:12] Why is it important?

[00:06:13] Well, why is hip hop important? Why is art important, right? You see, art is really important, right? So culture is important. And culture coming out of art, culture coming out of urban New York, it's important. And the world, and what's interesting is that this little kind of music, this culture of, music, of, hip hop, of more than just music, but this culture that came out of New York, that bred out of New York is affecting the world.

[00:06:42] You'll find hip hop every corner, in every corner of the world, and, it's really exciting to see something that, you know, Mark, that we, were raised with this, with this music. We were raised with this culture, and to see, it being celebrated and to see how it's grown, and it's grown from just you know, parties on the block in Queens and Brooklyn and Manhattan and different places to, hip hop artists in, in, in the Congo, in Europe and Asia and every corner of the world to see hip hop part of mainstream culture is a really powerful, beautiful thing.

[00:07:24] Clyde, in your opinion, which hip hop artist do you think has had the most impact in a positive way on culture?

[00:07:33] So it was hard to say, to choose one, right? So there are a lot of different, when you talk about hip hop, there are a lot of different artists that have contributed to the culture. so, you know, there are folks that, you know, and, it's, and hip hop is more than just music, right? Hip hop is also fashion.

[00:07:49] Hip hop is, you know, hip hop is, also art. Hip hop is also a way of life and how things are. So, so that, so the culture has permeated many things. So, so one of the, let's talk about certain type of art. You know, if we looked at one of the most, successful... Broadway shows, Hamilton, right?

[00:08:11] Hamilton is a hip hop performance. If you look at Hamilton and, when you realize that, you see how that permeated, you know, certain mainstream culture. when you look at, you know, when you look at fashion shows to see how hip hop has entered into fashion.

[00:08:26] When you look at music, many of your artists in many genre have, dabbled and have worked with the genre of hip hop, so it would be unfair for me to choose one artist to say that they had the most influence on the world. But I just think that the cult, the music as a whole has, and to look at the lifespan of that music, to see how different the genre of rock didn't last as long as, I'm sorry, rock is still here rock, you know, rock and it's, Popularity hasn't lasted as long.

[00:09:05] Disco lasted for a short amount of time. Hip, jazz, so hip hop is lasting much longer than other genres to that, you know, to be so popular and to stay, you know, still, stay so relevant.

[00:09:18] Yeah, I agree, it really does permeate through so many aspects of culture, from fashion to sports, from art to entertainment, but it's the storytelling, in my opinion, that's so rich, like, I'll tell you full transparency, I grew up loving DMC, When I was a kid, I was working in factories in the garment center here in New York City, and that's where I was turned on to DMC early on.

[00:09:43] But then, as I got a little older, Public Enemy just really blew me away, and something that I embraced there was Chuck D's ability to tell stories. I learned a lot about Black culture, specifically from Chuck D. I'm curious, in your opinion, who do you think is, or who do you think are some of the most important storytellers from, as it relates to black culture and hip hop?

[00:10:09] When it comes to hip hop, when you talk about, you know, storytellers, right, there are many great storytellers, so I have to, it would be sacrilegious if I don't mention Biggie Smalls, right? So, so Biggie... He's a great, you know, he's a great storyteller. Nas, if you ever listen to Nas's poetry and his poetism, you know, he's another, great one.

[00:10:29] You know, Jay Z, Tupac, obviously, you know, Tupac was

[00:10:34] West Coast.

[00:10:35] And then, so, and then the conversation that we're going to be talking about, that when we talk about, when we speak about technology and art and protection of these kinds of things and who creates what and what, who owns what, it's all part of this, it's all part of this conversation.

[00:10:49] And, but music, is culture. Music tells a story. And these artists, these hip hop artists are poets. and the best ones are some of the greatest poets and storytellers.

[00:11:02] I couldn't agree with you more, a hundred percent. So, I guess that's a good segue. You are, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Internet and New Technology. What does that subcommittee do exactly? what's the mission of the subcommittee on internet and new technology?

[00:11:21] Well, you know, so since I've been, elected to this New York State Assembly, I, you know, I've been fighting to make sure that we focus on how to make sure that this country, this state, the city, the state, and this country is, create, we create an environment that is conducive to, to innovation, to what's next, to what's new.

[00:11:46] We want to make sure that the builders and the entrepreneurs build here and they create here. We want the, and I can name all the different apps or what have you, but we want the companies and the inventors to come out of this country. We want them to come out of New York. We also want to make sure that we close.

[00:12:06] We close the digital divide, we close the economic gap, and as things progress, right, as things progress, as technology, permeates more and more into society, we want to make sure that we use the technology in a way to be able to get the underrepresented and the underserved served and better represented, and in all fields of human endeavor.

[00:12:30] Our subcommittee is looking at, is, like the policymaker futurism, people. How do we make sure that we balance the innovation with making sure that we protect on the backside, we protect and minimize the potential harms of these technologies.

[00:12:53] So it's really interesting that you spoke about balancing or rebalancing, communities. Do you think that, this new technology, let's, talk specifically as it relates to blockchain and crypto. do you think that there's a way to create more access for these underprivileged communities, for lower economic communities?

[00:13:13] As it relates to cryptocurrency and blockchain, and then if so, how? It's

[00:13:18] So Mark, we've been having a conversation in New York and in this country, and around the world about unbanked and underbanked. communities that don't have access to, to financial products, communities where they don't have access to loans. Communities where even when they transfer value, it costs them, they have higher transaction costs than other communities.

[00:13:48] Communities where they, where it takes longer and it costs more to transfer money, transfer value. In other words, lemme say it more plainly. It's harder to transfer money to folk that ain't got much money. They have to pay more to be able to transact. so one of the things that we were looking at, as, policymakers is to, in order to close that gap or in order to address that issue, some had the perspective of opening more banks in communities.

[00:14:25] Right, so people are underbanked and folks looked at the footprint of underserved communities and said, hey, underserved communities have less banks per square mile than bank communities. But in a world in nowadays, right, when nowadays what's happening is that less people are actually walking to traditional brick and mortar banks.

[00:14:50] What's happening nowadays is that, yes, if we put more banks in community, is that the answer? When there are, when you have a brick and mortar bank, and there are less bank tellers and more ATMs. Or when you look at the financial transactions are happening more electronically than with traditional banks.

[00:15:10] So, is the answer more brick and mortar banks? Is the answer using digital finance? Is the answer also using, figuring out how to send money with lower transactions? Mark, we also have an issue where I am of Haitian descent. My mother and father are both from Haiti and one of the things my mother does religiously is send stuff and money to Haiti.

[00:15:42] That's a thing that we do and she uses, name it, I don't want to name any particular products, but she uses different companies to send money Down to Haiti and it costs, it can cost her 12 to send 100 to

[00:16:03] Haiti,

[00:16:03] It's

[00:16:04] right? And it takes, how long it takes to get to there. So, when we look at cryptocurrency, when we look at these digital finance tools, where value can be transferred almost instantaneously and for much long, much lower transactional costs. And what's crazy, what's counterintuitive, and maybe it's not counterintuitive, maybe it's intuitive, but people of lower means pay more to transfer value.

[00:16:35] What do you mean they pay more? How does that work? So,

[00:16:39] So, if you look at, if we did, there was a study, I forget who did the study, but if you look at a study of how people that are of, lower socioeconomic status, they pay more, and people of color, generally speaking, pay more for money. They, generally speaking, even homeowners, people of color, you know, minority homeowners, pay a higher, generally speaking, pay a higher interest rate than other folks.

[00:17:07] That's paying for money. Generally speaking, people of lower socioeconomic status pay more to transact. Generally speaking, people of lower socioeconomic status that don't have a bank, have to go, when they go and, change their paycheck, have to go to a... Some institution that charges you more to cash your check than someone with a traditional bank.

[00:17:34] so really, this provides an amazing solution. The concept of having a digital wallet, using cryptocurrency and blockchain technology, particularly among, Underprivileged communities, lower economic communities, and its impact on race, it provides an amazing, it could provide an amazing impact as it relates to, savings, moving money, It's my understanding New York City just recently released this report where 33 percent of New York City's population is either unbanked or underbanked.

[00:18:08] And something that I was surprised about, Clyde, I read that a lot of these individuals don't have a bank account, not just because they don't have spare cash or ID, But they also don't trust the entity, the banking institution, or the government. They want more privacy, so do you feel that the privacy issue also plays a role in supporting these communities as it relates to access to banking?

[00:18:33] So, listen, I, again, in my position, I, you know, I can't advocate for one or another, type of product, but I, want to make sure that communities have access. various kinds of products and these new technologies are one of the, or one of them. It's one of the solutions that I believe that's important.

[00:18:57] And I just talked about the problem, right? But there are solutions, right? So, so the solution is, some of the solutions are, is making sure that, again, that people have access to, all these different types of, Financial products to all these different types of technologies, and these different technologies have different benefits that others may not have, but we want to make sure that people have a choice of going with the traditional bank or going with, you know, with crypto, or going with, but one of the things we have to make sure though, Mark, is we have to continuously educate people on what's going on with, you know, financial education.

[00:19:37] that's something that we, have to do. And we also have to make sure that we get people to interact with the digital economy. That's really important to do so, right? So there are folks that are, you know, that don't trust institutions, that don't trust, anything with respect to a card.

[00:19:58] Don't respect anything digital or don't trust anything for a number of different reasons. But we have to make sure that we, educate as best as we can, and we expose, folks to the diverse different kinds of opportunities to be able to share, to transact, to save, and to be able to receive, because Mark, I have small businesses.

[00:20:21] That are cash only businesses, right? I still that in this day and age, right? I still, so I have to make sure that I forget about crypto. I have to, you know, before we get to crypto, I have to get people to be able to understand that it's, you know, it's okay to be able to, you know, the different options on making sure that you reduce the friction to receive value in order to Get in a position to be able to receive more.

[00:20:51] So, you had mentioned, that it's important for us to, create a system now for government, to create a system now that allows for, I guess certainty, you didn't use that word exactly, but I think you were hinting towards certainty towards regulation so that we can attract investment dollars.

[00:21:10] through private equity and venture capital, so that we can have job creation here in New York City. do you feel like our government, like your colleagues, have enough, knowledge and expertise surrounding, for example, where cryptocurrency fits within the concept of monies that you just described, right?

[00:21:29] Because I'm not, I don't get the impression you're saying cash fiat currency is going to disappear. I get the sense that you're saying there'll be cash and there will be Digital currency, but do you feel that our government officials have enough knowledge to understand the benefits and, can protect or institute certainty quick enough through regulation so that we can grow jobs here?

[00:21:54] And, create entrepreneurship, attract investment dollars, and really have New York state benefit.

[00:22:01] Well, I think that so it's a challenge So so first of all, I think in New York is you know in a really Special place to be able to lead in what tomorrow's finance is going to look like And I think we're behind when it comes to a lot of these, when it comes to these newer technologies. New York is a place where we have something called the BitLicense that we've had since 2015, that many of the world, you know, much of the world is looking and modeling after to make sure that we protect, we protect our investors and our consumers, and we have to try to figure out how to balance that properly.

[00:22:40] but we're also a place that that put a moratorium on, on proof of work mining for two years.

[00:22:46] That was in April of 22. I think you voted against that.

[00:22:50] no doubt about it. So, but I do think New York is a place. That still we have folks that are from the blockchain community and from the blockchain industry that have put a flag down in New York and to build and create jobs and to, and not, but not only in New York City, but all across the state, that we're excited about the industry that has sprung up, in, this city, which is the financial capital of the world.

[00:23:19] And I think that we are, my colleagues going back to the question. You know, we're at a point now where a number of my colleagues are, you know, does everybody know everything? No, and you don't have to know everything about cryptocurrency. you don't even have to know how the internet works to use the internet, right?

[00:23:36] You don't have to know how money works to use money. But, don't put your hand over your ears and say, you know, and, make noise and act like it doesn't exist. You know, or, make crypto the boogeyman, which has happened, and, but not only for crypto, but for tech, for big tech also, so we have to make sure that we are educated and that, and education, again, I'm still learning a lot of stuff in this space, and we have to be open and willing to learn, to be able to make sure that we provide the proper guardrails, for this technology, and for this, Industry that could, that affects so much, you know, of what we do.

[00:24:19] Clem, my question about, like, capabilities is because I think people are confused. like, for example, the CFTC, which is a federal government agency, declared that ETH is a commodity. the New York Attorney General said, stated, declared that ETH is a security. The previous SEC Chair, Hinman, said that ETH is not a security.

[00:24:49] And then the current SEC Chair, Gary Gensler, When, about a month ago, he sat in front of a, in front of Congress in a hearing and they asked him whether or not ETH is a security, he didn't answer, he refused to answer. He refused to provide an answer. So, I wonder, in your opinion as a, you know, as a part of our government, like, does that have a, does that uncertainty create a chilling effect?

[00:25:16] And, and if so, like, where's the path towards closure on whether or not something as simple as ETH? is a security.

[00:25:24] So, Mark, the challenge with, this, product type, the problem with this asset class is, its hybrid nature. Right? It's like, I don't know what X Man superhero it is, that the person that morphs and changes or what have you. but that's, what this, a lot of these tokens, a lot of these coins.

[00:25:46] Can take multiple kinds of forms

[00:25:53] I agree.

[00:25:54] in this situation, I think, you know, if it's a duck, you treat it like a duck, but if it's a, you know, if it's a purple cow, now you treat it like a purple cow, right? So you treat the thing how it is with its, with how it's working, right? So, and if it morphs, you know, then we got to figure out how to do that.

[00:26:13] Is it, how important is, the definite, you know, so it's, you know, again, if it's a. So we should try to regulate it, to me, depending on its outcomes and what it is, doing, because some of these tokens, you know, are hybrid forms of, you know, can be commodities or, securities or can be, you know, can be just utilities.

[00:26:41] so it's, You know, it's, a challenge to figure this stuff out. Another challenge though, because of that nature of what the thing is, right? We've been wrestling with that. on the policy side, I'm not a, I'm not a, you know, I'm not on the agency side to figure out how to, you know, tax or things of that kind of sort.

[00:27:01] But what's important, what some of the challenges that we've had on the government side is that we've been having challenges trying to hire and keep talent. On the government side, to be able to properly address these newer technologies. So Mark, someone comes in, we hire someone, you know, we pay them whatever we pay them or what have you, and you know, you know, these folks that are, you know, relatively versed in this space, it's hard to keep them for a long time because The private sector, you know, grabs them up and picks them up or what have you.

[00:27:42] So at least in New York state, we've been having, we've worked to try to make sure that we hire and we pay, you know, people to be able to, with the expertise to be able to stay, to be able to help figure this, these things out.

[00:27:57] But Clyde, aren't we doing that in, I, might, maybe you could clarify this for me, but aren't we doing something like that as it relates to people in your seat currently? I think that you just created, you voted collectively, I don't know if you personally voted for this, but, a person that's sitting in the New York State Legislation now is not permitted to have any, outside private sector jobs or, income.

[00:28:27] They're only limited to the amount of money they earn as a represent, as a government representative. Is that, am I hitting on that concept accurately?

[00:28:37] That's something different, but that's something that, you know, that's for a policy maker. That's for, assembly members and for senators. And actually I voted, against, I think that's wrong. I think I voted against that. I,

[00:28:47] Because how would

[00:28:48] well, I should.

[00:28:48] people, how, do you keep the best people in there? Like, what's the threshold? A hundred thousand or something?

[00:28:54] I should be able to go out, again, outside of, as long as it doesn't create a conflict of interest with what my job is, as a policymaker, I shouldn't, I should be able to go have my own business. I should be able to do other, things and what have you. I don't want to be, I don't want my job to just be this.

[00:29:13] Because if my job, you know, what happens when I'm just in the, and I'm talking in my position in particular, if this is just my job, then I'm going to be, you know, be holding just for this paycheck. But why, if, but if I'm a successful, I still practice law, I still do a lot of other things. If, I still, you, you heard I had a restaurant.

[00:29:37] if I had these businesses, you know, outside of what I do here as assemblyman, why do I have to go walk away from that? That doesn't make any sense. And don't you want me to come in with the wealth of knowledge that I have and experience that I have from the outside world that affects what I'm doing, what I could be doing, you know, in the assembly.

[00:29:58] It doesn't make sense for, you know, for us to limit that. And that's

[00:30:01] then stay.

[00:30:01] they're exploring. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:30:03] Right. So, so it's, it's kind of funny because there's like always a nuance or like a contradiction between how we propel society forward through entrepreneurship, capitalism and free markets versus Restricting and pulling back and creating these governmental safety nets to a certain extent, right?

[00:30:27] Like, on the one hand, we want to protect the constituency to make sure that a seated assemblyman does not, you know, have inside information and use that information to ca capitalize on a stock, let's say, theoretically speaking. But yet, how could someone in New York City afford to live assemblyman's salary?

[00:30:48] The best and the brightest people simply won't come to, to government if that's the case, correct?

[00:30:53] Definitely, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, we are able to get a diverse group of people to, and the best people to be able to, you know, to be in a position to make policy for the state. That's something that's really important. And also, what's really important is that I want to be able to have the option to, when I walk away stage left from this position, To go private, to do my own thing, or to continue to do my own thing, to work in my own business, to have my own opportunities, and we need to, well, we, you know, we need to, we're looking at the wrong thing, and if the issue is to make sure that there's no conflict of interest, yes, we can have robust conflict of interest restrictions, but to say that you can't make, you can't, you can only make up to a certain amount on the outside is not, to me, it's not American, right?

[00:31:44] So it's really important for us to, You know, what I want to do is I want to make sure, even for children, for schools, for the community, I want to make sure that people are able to, be self actualized and to go and try to build, go out there and build. And that's, not even American.

[00:32:06] That's, biblical, brother.

[00:32:07] I love the concept of building. I really think that culturally, today in particular, we have builders and we have destroyers. And, you know, it's really a breath of fresh air. to have the opportunity to talk to somebody that's innovative, creative, embraces new technologies, and wants to build. But what happens, you know, in a city like New York City, in a state like New York, where we have so much regulation, is there a way to unlock entrepreneurship in a more effective, innovative way for maybe underprivileged communities?

[00:32:39] Like, what happens if, you know, you're, in a lower economic holistic level of society and you want to open a hair salon or open a restaurant. It seems like you're handcuffed from the outset as it relates to the amount of money in regulation, towards, you know, licensing fees, opening up the retail area, hiring people.

[00:33:01] is there something new that we can do to, I guess deregulate in certain sectors to help drive growth, particularly in the underprivileged communities? Thanks.

[00:33:12] First of all, Mark, you know, part of what's important is, you know, even having this kind of conversation and making sure that what we focus our policy on. and I find that it's really important. We have to, you know, when it comes to government, when it comes to what we're doing in government, when it comes to doing what we're doing in New York, it's really important to understand that we have to take care of those that are less fortunate.

[00:33:37] we have to take care of those that, we have to take care of the least among us. And that means that's least as far as not as a human, but as far as, resources on what happens. So we have to take care of those that are least among us. and generally speaking, the best way to do that from the beginning of time was to give folks a boat and not fish.

[00:33:59] And if we spend a lot, if we spend more time giving people fish, right, they will be dependent. But if we give people a boat, they will be able to feed their families for generations. So taking that parable, we have to make sure that we give people the tools to be able to build for themselves. And some of those tools are being able to make sure, making sure that we focus on training of our, you know, of business ownership, of investing in education, investing and making it making it.

[00:34:37] easier, creating an environment conducive to entrepreneurship. But when it comes to entrepreneurship, when it comes to business, to a business owner, I want people not to have, not to come up and give me great resumes. I want people to be able to be the ones reviewing resumes. I want people to be able to give jobs and not get, and not have to go get a living wage.

[00:35:00] We talk about living wage. I want, more people from underserved communities. Being the ones providing living wages and not the other way around and there's a way to do that. There's a way to focus on what that means.

[00:35:15] So that's really interesting to me and I'd love to expand on that topic a little bit, but it also, it's a good segue into artificial intelligence. because as you're very well aware, I know that you recently used AI to, serve as a tool in drafting a bill here in New York State, and you received, I think mainly criticism for it.

[00:35:37] It was surrounding the real estate sector. Does artificial intelligence provide those Individuals that you're highlighting right now, an opportunity to access education, not just to provide foundational knowledge about topics, but education towards how to build a business and how to operate a business.

[00:35:57] technology can be a great equalizer or it can create a wider gap where you need a wider, longer bridge. And we want to make sure that we use technology properly to help equalize What's happening to help, or to help close any gap. Mark, I'm still talking about it.

[00:36:17] We're still dealing with communities that don't have access to high speed internet.

[00:36:21] I know.

[00:36:22] We're still talking about having community. We're still talking about communities that, can't afford a data plan. Mark, do you know how much a decent data plan is now? Right? So we're talking hundreds a month, right?

[00:36:36] Hundreds a month. So, we have to make sure. So when it comes to artificial intelligence, If I'm still talking about connecting to broadband two years from now, imagine how far, you know, people that have access to these newer technologies are going to be from folks. So it's really important that it's very, important to make sure that folks employ and deploy these technologies and they learn and dance and wrestle with it.

[00:37:12] From the beginning of time, Mark. From the beginning of time. Technologies have replaced tasks and jobs. We're at a time now where artificial intelligence, robotics, automation in particular, are going to replace more jobs at a higher rate than it has been in the past. So, lower skilled folks, forget about lower skilled folks.

[00:37:41] Mark, if, the technology is at a place today where it can write, it can do my job and write a bill, right? White collar. Folks have to worry about that stuff too, right? So, so what's really important is how is human augmentation? How do humans interact with these technologies? How do we figure out how to wrestle and dance with these technologies so that we can be the master of it so that we can figure out where we can, how we can make what we do better so that we don't have, so we're not having the conversation of displacement.

[00:38:21] We're having a conversation of building, growing, and innovation.

[00:38:25] It's kind of interesting, your comment regarding, white collar jobs being on the lookout. If you really break it down, blue collar jobs actually, for the most part, require a, some kind of physical activity, a person that's participating to go from point A to point B to complete, to realize that vision.

[00:38:44] Whereas, in the... more intellectual, quote unquote, white collar positions, I think that there really could be a layering of, jobs surrounding law, surrounding the creative classes, certainly as it relates to music, we, you know, we spoke about hip hop earlier, but certainly music, the arts, filmmaking, in your opinion, do you think that short term, it's the, Blue collar jobs that are more at risk of loss, or the white collar jobs that are more at risk of loss as a result of artificial intelligence?

[00:39:20] Yes, just kidding. So, robotics in particular, right, is going to be, will, has been displacing folks in factories for a while. Generative AI, right, the artistic and non artistic, is, and also just Regular AI has been displacing white collar positions. When I first graduated law school, a gazillion years ago, I used to do something called document review doc review.

[00:39:58] And they used to lock me in the basement for hours and hours, and I would have to go through documents looking for privileged documents, meaning looking for documents that had communication between lawyers. And I used to have to, and lawyers, teams of lawyers would have to read this and go through this.

[00:40:17] So what, you know, and that has re I had been, I was replaced by scanning machines also, when it comes to, when I use generative ai, when I use these, large language models to be able to write stuff, right, they can write articles. Journalists have to be careful about that. If you can write bills, they can write art, they can write, they can, analyze certain types of things.

[00:40:46] What's really important is that the reason why I was using it, and again, keep in mind now, I use, I use these platforms now more than I do search because it's just, I just come up with better results. But anyway. One of the things is that maybe, Mark, the creative class has to wrestle with this stuff and figure out how we interact with the work product of these, of this stuff, right?

[00:41:16] Because I had to, edit and change the bill as it was, being written. So maybe we, maybe it can help with first draft, maybe it can help with what have you, but, what it's going to look like and what it's going to mean for creativity is something that we have to, Figure out because the accessibility of these programs has been in public, what, for six months now.

[00:41:46] How long did

[00:41:47] dance.

[00:41:49] how long did it take you to actually, with the use of AI, how long did it take you to write that bill, to draft that bill?

[00:41:56] So it took about maybe, you know, no more than two hours. so we, put the, we put the prompt in and it went and figured out the different tasks. And I think we edited the tasks and, and we put it in and you put it. we put it in the, chat, we put it in an agent and a GPT agent.

[00:42:19] and then it was in a platform to be able to execute the processes. So it took about, you know, no more than two hours.

[00:42:27] Are you the first person in politics, in government rather, to use? Artificial intelligence to draft a bill?

[00:42:34] That I know of. So people claim and say, Oh my God, how could he claim that? So again, I don't want, I don't want any trophies for that or what have you. The point is, am I the first? I don't know. I, believe I'm the first. To use this technology to be able to research, to write and draft the bill in coordination to enter a bill.

[00:42:59] I know people have used, chat GPT to write their speech on the floor or stuff like that. But what's really important, Mark, and the moral of the story is that the technology today... is of generative AI, meaning artificial intelligence that can mirror human think, is much more advanced than I thought it was.

[00:43:22] How long would it have taken you to write that bill without the use of AI?

[00:43:27] Well, Mark, I don't want to answer that question, because then I may implicate some of the people that work in, in, in Albany. And I have great folks that work in Albany that write bills or what have you, so we're not there to replace them tomorrow. and I still use humans, in, bill drafting to be able to...

[00:43:47] To draft bills. But for me, mark, and you talked about one of the things that we were talking about before in a previous question is, you know, should white collar folks be afraid? And that's the reason why I did that exercise. I did that exercise to see that I can, I will use these tools to help augment what I do, right?

[00:44:09] So I'm, going to use these to scale. I'm gonna use these tools to be able to do the initial research and initial drafts. but, but these issues are so important that, some of the, what I do is so important that I have to make sure that I and humans, people on my staff, are going through it, editing it, using it, but we can use it as a resource.

[00:44:34] That's how we're going to be using it, as a

[00:44:35] right. I, you know, I certainly think that there's a way to do this, to use artificial intelligence to augment or as a tool, but what people seem to not be covering in the conversations in the media coverage about this is the fact that it allowed for you, it freed up time for you to help your constituency in other ways.

[00:44:54] No doubt about it. Listen, I mean, you know, AI is a, you know, can be a time saver. It can help me, you know, it can help sharpen what I do, but also, Mark, we have to figure, we have to wrestle with this. We have to figure this stuff out. and for me to be able to, to help come out with proper policy in this space, not only do I have to understand it, I have to taste it.

[00:45:17] I have to work with it. I have to wrestle with it. I have to, try to figure it out. And I don't want to just do it in theory. I want to actually, you know, roll my sleeves up and, work with it.

[00:45:29] Right. Did you, obviously I, I see the media coverage and there are a lot of naysayers in the media, but what about your colleagues and peers, did they also, look at this as, a negative thing? Did you have some negative feedback from your peers in government?

[00:45:47] from some, most, many have been, positive and we're out of session now. We have, we, you know, we go back to session in January and I'm hoping that, but before session, we have, we passed a bill in New York state called the Artificial Intelligence Robotics, and Automation Task Force, where we're, what we're going to try to do is put together, a task force of folks from industry.

[00:46:13] From communities, from academia to be able to really try to help us get the proper guardrails in this space. and we just had a meeting today with some of my colleagues that are talking about this. And so I'm excited that we're even having this conversation.

[00:46:28] That's awesome. That's really great. Do you find that, People in general, not just the, government, but people in general are pushing back. Like they're scared of the newness of AI. They're scared of the newness of web three and blockchain technology.

[00:46:45] Yes, of course, people are scared of the new, people are scared of anything that's new and any change and that's understandable because we have a number of different impacts that this technology has, right? We have existential impacts, and I don't even want to talk about what those are, right?

[00:47:02] we have, we have societal impacts, we have consumer impacts, and people, yeah, people are afraid, that's why we have to make sure that, That's why it's so important that we convene this task force to be able to try to figure out, you know, how we deal with high risk AI, how we deal with a lot of these issues, that, and potential harms, and actual harms that could be, that are happening in, AI.

[00:47:25] In this country,

[00:47:27] in doing my research, I noticed that, Queens County has the, according to the 2021 New York State Criminal Justice Research Report, it has the third highest amount of hate crimes in all of New York State. And I noticed also that you voted to enact some technology to help fight what I interpret as, You know, this divide, right?

[00:47:52] We have issues of anti Semitism, of racism, and so on. In June of 2020, you voted to pass a bill that establishes the New York State Police Body Worn Camera Program. Again, a good use of technology to limit the amount of, honestly, hate that we have here in the city right now. Are there other ways, and I commend you for that, honestly, are there other ways that you think we can use new technologies to protect?

[00:48:18] The, population.

[00:48:19] no question, right? So we, you know, there are, we are working with the NYPD and, and other, and, the state troopers, to be able to deploy certain types of technologies, you know, to, you know, facial recognition technologies, we have, we've been using, you know, in the state that we've been using, certain types of technologies to identify, if, you know, where gunshots have been, deployed and trying to track ammunition, trying to track guns, we've been, using, we've been giving the, different agencies the ability to use data to be able to protect New Yorkers.

[00:48:59] So it's important that we use these latest technologies and to use this stuff, technology to be able to, you know, protect New Yorkers and make New York a safer place.

[00:49:08] I love that, you know, as a New Yorker, I also acknowledge the fact that you've been really critical in pushing forward a guns for cash program, it just seems like there's too much violence on our streets. I know it's limiting a little bit, but still, just even here, In Manhattan the other day, a 27 year old woman that I know, she works in a coffee shop that I frequent, she told me she was shot in the leg by an 18 year old at her house in Astoria. so, what type of, steps are, is the government taking to use technology specifically surrounding, gun violence in our city?

[00:49:45] when it comes to gun violence, I think, you know, one of the, there's a lot of things that we need to do, but one of the major things we have to do is, again, like I said before, is give people economic opportunities. Give folks jobs and training, right?

[00:49:57] Someone with, a lot of these issues are tied to economics. And someone with a job, someone with a future, someone with hope. is less likely to have these kinds of, when it comes to violence and when it comes to guns. So that's what we've been focusing on.

[00:50:13] I agree. I think that, we see a lot of frustration right now, throughout the entire country as it relates to, education, job growth, financial security. And as a result, unfortunately, people tend to act out. A lot of frustration. So, some future day, New York City residents will use AI too.

[00:50:36] Oh, I mean, to figure out, you know, the best route to get around the city. you know, I've been, I've stuck in traffic to go, two, three blocks. And, there will be, which, Waze already is a form of AI that does some of that, but we'll be using AI for, you know, for being able to transport around the city much easier.

[00:50:59] In some future day, New York City government officials will benefit from AI because...

[00:51:05] it may help us provide services much more efficiently. It may help us to be able to identify where certain inefficiencies are happening and to be able to, to provide services to the most needed New Yorkers.

[00:51:25] And finally, in some future day, New York State's children will use technology too.

[00:51:31] To build tomorrow. This morning I brought my 16 year old nephew with me to, to some of my meetings 'cause I want him to be able to be a master of AI and to be able to deploy AI and control AI and not have hi, not have AI control his life and his future.

[00:51:52] Assemblyman Vanell, I thank you so much for joining us today. It's really a pleasure meeting you, spending time with you. Thank you for all of the work you do for our state and, here in New York City, I hope to see you in person soon.

[00:52:06] Marc, thank you for all the work that you do. at NYU and in New York City and with your business and with your businesses that you do, for all your clients and what have you. And thank you for educating the community and having this conversation. Really appreciate connecting with you, brother.

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