Some Future Day

Marc Beckman: [00:00:00] Karen Fang Grant, it's so great to have you as a guest of mine on some future day. How are you today?
Karen Fang Grant: I am doing well. Thank you, Mark. Thank you for having me.
Marc Beckman: Karen, um, it's rare that I meet people that have such a love for brands, and in particular, appreciate the intersection between emotional connection of a brand and a consumer. And I'm excited that you and I share this, uh, sentiment as it relates to that issue. So most of our conversation is going to focus on emerging technologies, specifically artificial intelligence today and its impact on the consumer experience and brands.
But as you know, and as I know, and as my Viewers know artificial intelligence is totally changing that equation. So before we drill down onto [00:01:00] the details of that, I want to ask you the philosophical question, do brands matter anymore? Is artificial intelligence creating such a customized experience that perhaps doesn't matter or won't matter anymore?
Karen Fang Grant: Well, I'm gonna, if you ask such a fascinating question, I'm gonna take you on a little, little walk of history because this is one that, um, I, I think about all the time and, um, and it's one that, um, companies I work with also are, are, are really fascinated by, um, because what they've been facing is this really dramatic shift from a time in which brand was king.
You know, you, you put product on a shelf and consumers came to it because it was there. Because, because of the brand. People believed in brands. Consumers were driven by brands. And that's because, at the heart, what the brand communicated, [00:02:00] um, in addition to all of the unique things that brands generally communicate, was, was trustworthiness and quality and safety, you know, and, and then that whole host of emotional factors that consumers seek.
Um, After that point, we hit this world in which, um, the meaning of the brand started to change. So I call out, you know, sort of the 2010s and the advent of social media, and suddenly, um, it was not brands telling us what they mean, but instead, we kind of going out there as individuals and commenting on the brand and, and in some cases, changing what the brand means.
Fast forward again to today with the world of artificial intelligence and particularly gen AI and suddenly you have a different sort of interface. Um, where it's no longer kind of broadcast advertising and branding, controlling that narrative. We have ChatGPT telling us, um, about brands and introducing brands to us.
[00:03:00] And so there is this, um, interesting sort of existential question around the meaning of brands within that environment, where, um, Brands no longer can control that narrative. They no longer can control that, that channel to us. Instead, individuals are going out there based on all of this data that exists within those models, like ChatGPT and, and otherwise, and both reinventing what the brand is on their, their, with their own, um, You know, prompts and, and questions, but also those models consolidating what individuals have done and, and the breadth of the data that exists out there to then redefine, um, that path to that brand, the meaning of that brand, how that brand is presented.
Um, so it's, it's a very good question in terms of, um, that loss of control that suddenly brands have in terms of presenting themselves to consumers.
Marc Beckman: So, there's a fundamental shift then that I'm seeing apparent in your words where we [00:04:00] went from brands speaking at consumers,
Karen Fang Grant: Mm hmm.
Marc Beckman: to consumers, with a call to action. I'm driving down 5th Avenue and I see this beautiful billboard, it's traditional OOH, the call to action is, Mark, buy this suit. And then I
Karen Fang Grant: Yes.
Marc Beckman: to the retailer, I go to Saks Fifth Avenue, I buy the suit.
Now I'm not reacting to that anymore. Um, and we'll get into all of the changes as to how that billboard will fundamentally be personalized to, to cater to me and, and literally it could happen with me driving by and beyond, but I guess my question to you is should brands be thinking now that traditional advertising no longer works and in fact, rather than speaking at the consumers, brands need to figure out a way to make the brand, make the consumer part of the communication they need to act within the culture of a brand.
Karen Fang Grant: Absolutely.
Marc Beckman: does that make sense to you?
Karen Fang Grant: Yes it does and I think it's a long standing evolution [00:05:00] that, that companies have been through. Um, I think companies are accustomed to that idea now. That, um, brands can no longer talk at consumers. They have to engage in a conversation. In fact, have to wait for that consumer to proactively reach out in a way.
Um, and, um, and as I said, this was the same thing. This was really accelerated by the advent of social media where suddenly every single individual out there had a voice and kind of an equivalent voice, um, you know, or equivalent ability to, to get attention from others. And so, um, I think brands have actually been on that journey of changing the ways in which they engage.
The difficulty now with something like Gen AI is that, um, it has, um, I think we've for a long time furthered or taken a step change in that shift of how consumers look for what they want. I advise that they speak in that way. In the past, it was brands saying, as you said, you need this product, you need this suit, you need this moisturizer.
You need this, you know, hotel or flight or whatever. It's no longer doing that. These [00:06:00] days, consumers can very easily go out there with these kind of human language oriented platforms and say, I don't need a product. I'm looking to be entertained. I am looking for a perfect vacation to relax myself. And you can tell it more and more and more.
And that, that tool, um, that Gen AI enabled platform will understand you. And it will look for that collection of things that you want. I think a really good example of this, um, actually is, Um, how human beings address the fundamental need of health. In the past, brands might say, well, you were looking for health, you need this protein shake, or this OT, you know, over the counter remedy, or this solution to your problem, this product, right? Right now, I can go in and say, I'm feeling very tired today, I'm very jet lagged because I just took a flight from Singapore, and, and, and I want to feel better. And it, and that Gen AI enabled [00:07:00] platform might deliver to me Um, everything ranging from, you know, take a moment of mindfulness and some deep breathing to, you know, how about, um, you know, why don't you spend some time wrapped in a cozy blanket today, hydrating yourself well, you know, it's a, it's a combination of factors that it's addressing emotional, physical, mental, and otherwise, um, and where does the brand sit within that if they've not kind of re steered themselves towards the need versus the product.
Marc Beckman: So Karen, are you suggesting that we're going to see a fundamental shift with regards to a brand's core values? For example, and this is actually something that I haven't really explored with any marketer yet. Um, there are tribes of consumers. Right, so you might be part of the Nike tribe, and you subscribe to Nike's positioning and core values, or perhaps alternatively, you're part of the On tribe, and you, and you subscribe to On's core values, [00:08:00] or similarly, like, I, I always love the denim example, where we know as consumers, we're going to get the same quality and same cut for pretty much the same price point between Levi's And Diesel, but we might perhaps subscribe to the Levi's, all American, freedom type of tribe versus the Diesel, machismo, Italian, fashion forward tribe.
But those are very, those core values are locked. And the brands and the, and the brand directors apply those core values. With regards to celebrities that activate their campaigns, with regards to brands that they collaborate with, with regards to channels of distribution, and of course, their messaging.
Will artificial intelligence have a fundamental, um, change on a brand's core values, where they might say, well, we know that Karen cares about health and wellness. So we're going to take on that persona when we speak with Karen,
Karen Fang Grant: huh,
Marc Beckman: Mark, he doesn't care about that stuff. He just wants to get information that [00:09:00] will help him in his career and work.
So we're going to speak to him in a different way. So do you think brands will actually fundamentally change and personalize their own core values so that they could, um, I guess attract broader tribes? Maybe it's a segmented
Karen Fang Grant: uh huh.
Marc Beckman: see in a few years because of artificial intelligence.
Karen Fang Grant: It is such an interesting question and, and, and I think it's a, the answer is, is, is an and versus an or, you know, I think that what you bring up around a brand's core values, um, very precious to that particular brand and, and sort of a, a touchy subject. I don't think that a, a fundamentally, a brand can change its core values from one to another because there's a lack of authenticity that's inherent in that. But to your point, being that those core values manifest themselves and have different meanings to every individual is absolutely true because every human being is, is different in terms of how they interpret the world and, and what their set of values is. And we, with the power of AI [00:10:00] and gen ai, we suddenly have the ability to be able to do that hyper-personalization.
That's. scale without it being sort of economically unviable. Um, it is both the ability of that AI to ingest, you know, massive amounts of insights about me as an individual, Karen, or, or you as Mark. And then, um, pick and choose from what is still it's, it's good. kind of consistent set of values and the meaning it has as a brand to deliver it in a way that makes sense to me.
Um, and, and again, we've, we've kind of seen this all along where the formatting of that message has changed, um, you know, depending on the channel that it's coming through. Now, um, it can on the fly, um, change the imagery, change the words, change, um, the music that's associated with it, um, to sort of tailor itself to me.
Now, there is a question, at least in the past year or two, of AI around that, which is, um, I don't know if you've, you know, I [00:11:00] play a lot with different, different frontier models, and, um, frequently what you find is that what comes out of them is, is a little bit generic. Um, and, and it will come up with the same sort of, you know, answer depend, you know, we, we do a lot of these exercises.
We'll have groups of executives sitting together and kind of prompting away, um, at a particular task. And oftentimes, um, there is, Um, on, on one hand, um, depending on the prompt you put in, you can get, um, a, a very different kind of response and different kind of answer, different kind of style. That's one of the, the cool things that Gen AI can do, you know, put this in, uh, the style of, of someone who is, you know, a little bit more, more gritty and edgy versus someone who's sort of conventional.
But on the other hand, um, it's all drawing from that same very large base of data. And if a brand is reliant on just that model, um, all brands can start to sound the same. And so what that brings me back [00:12:00] to is there's still that very, um, important prioritization of understanding who you are as a, as a brand.
and what makes you distinct and even more so, that importance of human creativity layered into that in order to um, communicate who you are to that individual consumer in a way that is authentic and truly human.
Marc Beckman: Karen, that's really interesting because, uh, you're making me think again of another area that is traditional as it relates to strategy, marketing strategy, where you're defining a brand or, or an advertising agency is defining who their target audience is and traditionally for decades now, we use the same demographic kind of formula.
Karen Fang Grant: yes
Marc Beckman: average household
Karen Fang Grant: yes
Marc Beckman: the psychographic profile part of the equation to the side for a second. But, with artificial intelligence, will we see [00:13:00] brands and brand marketers reshape? That target demographic profile. Can we create slivers of micro segments now where we don't really care so much about, you know, the middle aged white guy who's in his fifties and income is above a certain threshold and he lives in the Northeast and it's more, we could be a lot more specific blending together demographic and psychographics.
I, I feel my instinct is like that entire formula will also be kind of thrown to the curb very soon imminently. It feels like it should actually be done now.
Karen Fang Grant: I feel very optimistic about that. Please, please take us away from the world of demographic segmentation. It's still shocking to me. I mean, and as someone who follows marketing very closely, you know, I think any, any marketer would say demographics are, are really, a really poor tool to understand who that human being is.
And, and what you're making me think of actually is, um, and there's a lot of danger to it too because, um, with [00:14:00] regards to AI and, and we spoke about this when we were on that panel together, um, in New York, um, we, there is a, an inherent bias in the data that goes into all of these different models. They make assumptions about who you are because,
unfortunately human beings make a lot of assumptions about who you are depending on how you look and how you present yourself. And, um, We don't want to amplify that with the tools and the data that are now available to us. Especially because there are those really fascinating possibilities. AI can do things that a human being might not be able to do.
Find out things about you that a human being just doesn't have The processing power in our brains to be able to understand. So that move from demographic segmentation to, um, not just psychographic segmentation, but behavioral on a wide, um, range of elements that, um, we are [00:15:00] now actually feeding into the model because we are leaving our digital and other fingerprints all over the world.
The ability of computers now to understand what I'm doing also in the physical world and then embed that data into that model that defines, you know, who it understands as Karen is really fascinating. So, so I feel very optimistic about the ability of AI to help us address human beings, you know, where, when, and how they want to be addressed.
I don't
Marc Beckman: regards to brands becoming very personalized. They've almost taken on a life, a human type of, uh, nature. And brands have become politicized, they became social activists, um, they're important, they've become more important in the consumer's life than ever before.
Now if you subscribe to [00:16:00] the tribe, you're also subscribing to whether or not that brand is a social justice warrior, plus all of the causes that that brand takes on. So if all of these fundamental shifts occur because of artificial intelligence, let's face it, consumers are More intelligent today than ever before, but at the same time, I believe they're disloyal to brands than ever before.
So my question is, will we see brands revert back to just inanimate representations of a product or will they continue to be humanized in ways where they are important within society?
Karen Fang Grant: I don't think brands can be important unless they're humanized, um, because, um, we're human beings and we're the ones who want to choose them or engage with them. Unless they have a clear, um, personality meaning all the way through [00:17:00] to those values you were talking about, it's really difficult to build affinity for them.
I think that to your question about whether. Consumers are becoming more disloyal. Um, also a really interesting question. I would contend that at this point, consumers are not necessarily becoming more disloyal, but becoming more confused. So we do this research every single year on the consumer and the human being, and our most recent one highlighted the degree to which consumers are facing just extraordinary levels of decision stress.
So, to your point, we are far more well informed than ever before, and the majority of consumers say, I know more now About what I want than I ever did before because that the information is all available to me and at the same time I am more confused about this. I am less confident that I can [00:18:00] actually make the decisions that lead to me getting what I want than ever before.
So, while brands are piling in with all of this information, I know more about not just what I want, but more about that brand than ever before. It is harder than ever for me to make that decision. So, Part of this study we've done is we've looked at different categories across consumer experiences and consumer purchases and said, how confident do you feel that you'll get what you want when you make this purchase? And the most confident consumers tend to be were on things like their weekly grocery shop. The least confident, some, you know, um, you know, Financial services kind of instruments and the like,
but um, there were some surprises in between there. Um, and, and my, my favorite example is one where it said that consumers were equivalently confident or, or unconfident when it came to picking a moisturizer for their face as they were for picking a washing [00:19:00] machine for their house.
Think about the differences between those two kinds of occasions. I buy a washing machine, hopefully, once every 10 years or so. It's a fairly hefty purchase. It's a very big one that creates a lot of disruption in my household. A moisturizer, um, there are a lot of affordable moisturizers out there and even the premium ones, um, in terms of their price point versus a washing machine.
And it's something I use every single day. And yet, I feel An equivalent level of stress when it comes to choosing those, those, you know, between those two products. This is something that consumers are saying today.
Marc Beckman: Is that, as it relates to the moisturizer issue, is that because the advent of technology in that category has created so many options and so many variables and so many benefits that they don't even know where to start anymore?
Karen Fang Grant: Yes. And, and, and that's from so many different levels too. So if you, you take a typical, I'm a, I'm a little bit of a geek when it [00:20:00] comes to those kinds of products. Um, because it's the industry that I cover. Um, if you take a look at everything that is wrapped up into that particular product, um, Starting with the product itself, the amount of science that has gone into, um, you know, the skin care in the past several years is fairly amazing, by the way, enabled by AI and in silical development of ingredients that go into that particular product.
So, it's becoming more and more and more science based. Based, um, those, those kinds of products, um, similarly, the communication of what's actually in that product has become more and more and more impacted by ai. Um, where, um, the, the communication of the benefit. the product, um, the, the discovery of the product, the usage of the product have been facilitated by AI.
And the hope is that AI can actually help that consumer, um, answer many of their questions. There, there are actually a number of AI [00:21:00] enabled tools out there that, um, you actually think would make things easier. Everything from, you know, the ability to diagnose skin conditions and then recommend a product for me.
Um, those are, You know, widely those kinds of diagnostic tools are widely used by beauty companies around the world. Um, there's another example that I, um, really like, which is L'Oreal's Beauty Genius, um, which can take a picture of my face and then, um, actually, um, Interact with me using human language to answer my needs when it comes to that particular product.
Similarly, Shiseido also does skin diagnostics that again lead to recommendations. But that doesn't answer all the questions that a, a beauty consumer might have because many of these science based skin products take time to act. You have to be using it for six months before you actually see the impact on your skin and an AI has a [00:22:00] solve for that as well.
So there's this company called Haute AI and they have this tool called SkinGPT and not only does it help Recommend products for you, but it could actually use Gen AI to show you what your skin might look like in six months time after you've been using that product.
Marc Beckman: That's really interesting. So that fundamentally changes the shopping experience for the consumer as it relates to skin care on the digital side, right? I'm at home, I'm on my
Karen Fang Grant: Mm hmm.
Marc Beckman: some sort of a device, and that's, you know, that certainly enhances the shopping experience for me because it's a category that's confusing, it gives me more knowledge.
What happens though to that same consumer when he or she walks into a retailer? I walk
Karen Fang Grant: Yep.
Marc Beckman: Bergdorf Goodman, and I want to find similar solutions to the issues that you've raised, but now I'm in a physical store.
Karen Fang Grant: Yeah.
Marc Beckman: similar ways that artificial intelligence is enhancing or improving that customer experience for skin care [00:23:00] specifically?
Karen Fang Grant: Well, absolutely, because, as it turns out, when I walk in the store, I'm also on my phone. You know, this is just how people are today, you know, we always have it sort of attached to us. I put it aside just for you, Mark, so it wouldn't be there in my hand, distracting me from this conversation. But typically, that's how consumers are.
Consumers are natively omni channel these days. Um, there's not that sort of artificial, I mean, you and I are old enough to remember there was a world in which we were more multi channel, where we saw these as different facets of the world. The consumer today, and, and particularly, um, as you get into consumers who have never known a world without, um, an iPhone or another mobile device, um, they don't see that distinction between I, you know, I, I see them as different worlds.
It's all one combined world. So, most consumers today are in the store, also browsing online, doing everything from price comparison to research on the [00:24:00] products that they're looking at. And companies are recognizing that too. So, there was an interesting example, and this was actually with regards to hair care, where L'Oreal was working with Walmart to, um, Bring an augmented reality experience into their store with regards to hair color.
Cause if you're, you're, you're coloring your hair in a different shade, you want to know what it looks like on you. So it's actually difficult to stand in front of the shelf and kind of decide and say, take that box and say, I see the woman that's on the box and how, how she looks, but I don't look like that.
Will this shade look good on me? And so. Um, what they've done is, um, in this particular case they actually worked with Snapchat, so they put a QR code on, it's a very simple device, put a QR code on the box, um, open up Snapchat, um, you know, snap the, the QR code and then have the ability to place that hair shade on my own face and, and see it live in the store and make the right [00:25:00] decision for me.
Marc Beckman: So, as you know, I'm very bullish about the transformation of a brick and mortar shopping experience with the advent of artificial intelligence and spatial computing, but what I'm concerned about is hardware. So, the phone just seems very powerful. Very simple, right? Everybody's connected to their phone and, and the solutions that you're suggesting as it relates to hardware specific, the phone, they seem really simple, but Karen, how do you feel about the idea of people, consumers, using glasses?
Karen Fang Grant: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Marc Beckman: where we talk about the modern hotelier. The modern hotelier is a product that's in store to enhance their customer experience. It would be more personalized. It can give them more information about the product itself. It's, it's, um, you know, we could cover so many different issues. They don't even need to try on the product.
They don't even need to physically take out a credit card anymore. They'll be able to walk right out and The product could be shipped to their home, um, but do you think consumers are reluctant to wear eyewear or to use a different type of hardware [00:26:00] for spatial computing and AI purposes in the consumer experience, specifically?
Karen Fang Grant: Currently, yes. Um, I think there's been a huge amount of froth and excitement in the past several years about the ability to utilize devices like that to put yourself into a more immersive world, you know. The excitement around the metaverse and the like, for example. And, um, I don't think that, um, that kind of, um, technology is dead.
I don't think that kind of technology is not going to be, um, relevant in the future. I just think that we haven't found that confluence of both, um, convenient enough format, um, of that technology and the right use case for it to actually take off. With the use case part of that actually being the more important part of it.
Why would I want to pick up or carry with me another device when I already have my phone, which does, you know, almost as good of a job at [00:27:00] helping me in that particular task as, you know, a separate pair of glasses might. And, um, I remember when, when some of the, the augmented reality glasses, um, came out, they were, um, and they still continue to be, um, Pretty heavy devices and sort of inconvenient to wear for long periods of time.
Um, and they also didn't look very cool. You know, consumers are very prone to that kind of judgment as well. Until they become as convenient as, and, and as, you know, the other thing that's a winner about the iPhone is that it's, it's inherently multi functional. I can do a lot of things on it. The, the glasses have a fairly limited size.
set of use cases associated with it. Until we can solve for that, you know, convenience, weight, cool factor, but also the multifunctionality of it, and multifunctionality of it against use cases that I actually care about, um, I, I still see quite a lot of barriers to get there.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, that's [00:28:00] unfortunate. It's, um, Instinctively, I'm not sure if, if, uh, the study that you referenced earlier with regards to consumers, um, being the most confused as it relates to financial products, um, is also related to a trust issue, but certainly artificial intelligence, um, raises a lot of trust issues for consumers too, specifically privacy concerns and security.
Concerns. There's a lot of security concerns.
Karen Fang Grant: Yeah.
Marc Beckman: um, in your research, are you seeing that these, um, uh, brands are, um, Uh, putting, uh, tools in place to protect consumers privacy and security in a very strong way. Is, is this a concern of yours or have we passed that threshold now and brands have a good amount of control as to consumer data and making sure there's no, no, uh, [00:29:00] privacy, uh, and security leaks?
Karen Fang Grant: I think this is something that is, um, an enormous issue, actually, because, again, um, I mentioned before the degree to which, um, AI can now access such a host of, of information about me, you know, in the physical world and in the digital world. Uh, I'm just living, leaving more data all the time. And, and, and, and I even study this and I probably don't know all the data that's getting out there in the world and is is available to all.
Um, so I think it's something that, um, there's a, there's a lot of discussion amongst. So, um, branded companies about this because they recognize the, the challenge and the, and the risks inherent in it. But on the flip side, um, if you don't use this data, if you don't seek to understand your consumer, or actually the individual human being at the heart of the consumer really well, you're going to lose as a brand.
And so, there, in a little bit of a, a conundrum there. Um, and, and [00:30:00] one of the questions I frequently get from companies is, is around that. Question of privacy and how far is too far. How do you, when do you tip from, um, you know, something being really cool to being a creepy interaction instead? I feel stalked by this brand and the like.
Um, what I would say is that consumers have sort of, you know, Consistently shown the ability to share more about themselves than you ever thought. Think just about what individuals put on, on Facebook or Instagram or the like. Um, there's a huge amount of very personal data that we're willing to share with, with everybody.
Um, and, um, the reason we're willing to share all of that data with, whether it be the platforms or, or brands is because we get commensurate value for it.
Marc Beckman: think that's a generational thing though Karen? Are the younger generations quicker to share everything about their life and their world on social media than my generation and older?
Karen Fang Grant: I think it started in the younger [00:31:00] generations because they were native to it. So um, the latest generation, Gen Alpha, largest generation in history, um, projected to be about 2 billion individuals, um, when that generation stops coming into this world. Um, they are a world, they are a generation that has never known a world without social media.
You know, because they started in 2010, and so they're accustomed to that, but there have also been a number of studies done that show that those behaviors that might originate in those generations are promulgating themselves across generations. So I remember when, um, everyone couldn't stop talking about the millennial and who the millennial was, you know, the fir the first generation that really did embrace, um, social as well as another, another of a number of other behaviors, um, that very quickly, those behaviors that we thought of as millennial behaviors start to roll back to, you know, gen X and into boomers and and [00:32:00] beyond.
And so you can't. Also rely on those behaviors that start with the young, staying with the young.
Marc Beckman: Can you give me an example when you talk about like crossing over into content that's derived between a brand and a consumer that might become too creepy? Like let's stay on the skincare conversation. Like if I'm going to upload an image of my face and that leaks into, you know, uh, another database or something of this nature.
How can that be used? Like what, what, what can become like, what's not obvious about data leaks beyond just, you know, my social security number, my credit card information. Like if, if they have access to my, My face, for example, is, um, that going to cause a risk with regards to future biometrics or, like, where do we get creepy in ways that we're not thinking about yet?
Karen Fang Grant: Well, the security issues around [00:33:00] biometrics and the like, I think, are ones that are actually a little bit harder for the average consumer to keep in their minds as they're continually sharing their data out. But a very easy example of creepy might be, you know, I take a picture of my face in order to find that right moisturizer and it starts to interact with me based on what's behind me.
So, I took a picture of my face to show it, what the condition of my skin is, and what I look like, and it says, Oh, but I noticed in your background, you've got a statue of Don Quixote. Are you really interested in him as a character? That would be creepy, to me anyway, personally,
right?
Marc Beckman: I agree.
Karen Fang Grant: Um,
Marc Beckman: on the way? Have you seen that happening?
Karen Fang Grant: Oh, it's, it's entirely possible today.
Um, now, I hope that brands are governed enough by human beings that, that they realize, This is, this is not cool. This is, this is too stalkerish. You've, you've stepped into my world in a way that I did not invite you into my [00:34:00] world. And again, the positive news being that as AI gets more and more precise in terms of its ability to monitor those patterns across human beings, it should be able to over time recognize that that's not acceptable.
That when Karen takes a picture of her face for a particular purpose, I should, you know, stay, stay to that purpose that Karen has defined. Um, we have enough data now, and the AI is getting advanced enough that it should be able to know that. So that's, that's the good news side of it.
Marc Beckman: Karen, obviously a very, um, popular part of the artificial intelligence conversation is loss of jobs. so much. technology replace the human? Staying within this concept of skin care, it occurs to me that perhaps those specialists behind the counter at brick and mortar, or maybe even in doctor's offices, won't be needed anymore.
If I can use artificial [00:35:00] intelligence that's trained on a corpus of data that's at a very, You know, broad level, perhaps that data is more accurate than the individual helping me behind the counter at Bergdorf Goodman or in the doctor's office, even, and, um, that individual might not be needed anymore.
Do you feel, um, that there could be job displacement specifically as it relates to that sliver of consumer facing assistance in the skincare space? Just that job specifically.
Karen Fang Grant: Yeah, and I was, I do, and I think that it is based on a number of different factors that go beyond AI. Um, so, if you think about your department store or, um, shopping case, um, I reflect on how consumers discover beauty, and once upon a time it was we went into a department store. A beautifully coiffed, perfectly made up individual would tell me what beauty is, and what is the right [00:36:00] beauty for me, and what I should buy.
You know, this was very unidirectional in a way. I mean, yes, they were interacting with me, but it was an expert telling me what beauty is. We have long since passed that, that stage. You know, today, beauty is self defined by the individual, and there's a celebration of that, actually, amongst us. So, I've been able to connect with all of these different brands as well as individuals.
And that is because again, going back to what I said before, the advent of social media and the ability of influencers large and small to communicate with me and for me to actually choose who I follow and who I listen to, put control back in the hands of me. I'm no longer subject to what that department store expert tells me.
I have the internet, right?
Marc Beckman: Right,
Karen Fang Grant: Add AI onto that and suddenly I know even more and I have the ability to know even more at a level of precision that was not possible in the past. Um, so I do think that that, um, if you think about, um, [00:37:00] we have to think of a new word. It used to be the purchase funnel, right? It's no longer the purchase funnel, um, because of all of these influences and because of, um, you know, none of those terms really, um, capture the ability of the human being to actually.
be a little bit more in control of their fate.
Marc Beckman: so it's interesting because there we just landed on another aspect of traditional like marketing thinking that's going to be altered, right? There's another spot where it will be altered. Um, I also think what you mentioned earlier. With regards to artificial intelligence used as an advantage for companies and brands to create new formulas Could be very disruptive, is very disruptive.
Can you share brands? You, you, uh, highlighted the fact that brands are already doing that To create a superior product and frankly, I still stand behind the idea of superior product as champion We can create all the bells and whistles. We could use

Marc Beckman: Is Oh, champion.
I could love the [00:38:00] pants that you're selling me, but if they don't fit well, I'm never wearing them again, and I'm never buying them again. But as it relates to skincare, it's really interesting, because if I can use artificial intelligence to compete with the legacy businesses, they're Deep Pockets, L'Oreal, Estee Lauder, Shiseido, you mentioned, one of my favorite companies, especially with skincare.
Um, but now if, if, Little Mark Beckman Inc. can use artificial intelligence to create a superior product. I could win. I could
Karen Fang Grant: Yes.
Marc Beckman: I could actually compete with those big companies. In your opinion, which companies are using AI to develop superior product, innovative product, in a way that is going to put them at the top of the hill?
Karen Fang Grant: Well, I think that, um, every company is at least having to experiment with it. Um, and, and that is at every stage of, of their enterprise. So, frequently, um, when I, when I think about AI as opposed to, um, to other technologies that have come. [00:39:00] You know, there have been a lot of, a lot of passions about a lot of technologies over the years.
Um, what is different about AI and GenAI is that it is a technology that impacts every single role in an organization. Back to your point about jobs and your question about jobs. Uh, and every, um, Part of the organization. Um, so to give a few examples, um, if you think about what a typical, um, consumer goods company does, it, it, um, crafts a corporate strategy, which it then brings to life in terms of usually a branded product that it is producing, which it markets and creates demand for, sells into retailers or directly to consumers, and then delivers to them, you know, that's kind of the full, um, scope of what a consumer goods company does typically.
Um, transforms or even reinvents every single one of those activities. Um, so, think about corporate strategy and [00:40:00] how corporate strategy traditionally had been done once every five years. Strategic planning done once every year with AI and the ability to ingest massive amounts of information, real time and, um, structured and unstructured information on an ongoing basis.
You can essentially conduct strategic planning or adjust your strategy Every single moment. Similarly, when it comes to crafting that product or service or experience that you want to, at the end of the day, give to a consumer, um, we have the ability to use AI to conduct in silico development. And what I mean by that is using synthetic data, um, you know, based on what you know and what you can find about consumers to identify new demand spaces that may not exist.
Then using AI to do rather than. ingredient development in a wet lab, um, in silico development. in the data to identify new ingredients, new product formulations, and entirely new, new products using AI as we've [00:41:00] discussed in marketing to hyper personalize, um, the, the communication and the message to that particular individual, you know, so you can see how AI really embeds itself across the board and, and changes.
That entire experience for, for companies, um, if you, you know, you, you asked about examples of companies that are doing this, um, we've seen, you know, for example, um, Clorox using in silico consumers, digital twins of consumers to identify new demand spaces. Byersdorf, um, years ago actually used in silico development to do ingredient discovery for, for skin care.
In marketing, which is probably one of the, the biggest areas that consumer goods companies have been leaning in first. So it's kind of similar to when digital became a thing and we were kind of first to market with digital marketing. Um, they have also been recognizing that this is, this is where we touch the consumer.
You can see the, the impact in market very quickly. The use cases are a little [00:42:00] bit more well understood. So being able to, um, really transform the content supply chain, the development of content, and the hyper personalization of content for that, that marketer, a very common area. For Fewer examples as you go down the line, um, but, but a couple here and there.
Um, in sales, if you think about, um, the typical salesperson and enabling that salesperson to visit their retail customers and, and sell in the right product and, and make the right suggestions. We, um, are actually doing work with a company right now where we've got an intelligence sales coach that helps that salesperson, up skills them, and, and gives them the right recommendations, um, and even the right pitch.
Um, and works with them, coaching them on that right pitch to take to their, their retail customer. Um, supply chain has been, you know, AI has been applied there for a really long time. Um, but, um, increasingly what we see is the ability to, um, not just become more [00:43:00] The Modern Hotelier, David Millili, Steve Carran, Stayflexi, CRM, CEO, LodgIQ, Dr.
Elizabeth Haas, Pierre Gervois, Revinate, CRM, CEO, LodgIQ, Dr. Elizabeth Haas, Pierre Gervois, AIG. Struggled with understanding, you know, crazy things that consumers might do or want, the ever changing demands of that, um, human being, which are oftentimes, um, revealed to us through social media. Now we are in a world where the, um, uh, supply chain can utilize GenAI as a translation layer to understand those crazy things that, that consumers do.
Um, so, so you can see that, that impact happening, um, everywhere. Um, those examples we gave, like Clorox, like L'Oreal earlier, or, or Shiseido. Um, Mondelez, a great example of, of marketing and transforming the content supply chain. Um, rolling throughout the world. The organization and changing what [00:44:00] companies do.
Um, but I was reflecting on your still on your question about jobs and the changing nature of jobs, because, um, I think most of the narrative has been, um, Steered towards a certain, you know, series of directions that are a little bit limited, in my opinion. So what I mean by that is, there's been a lot of scaremongering.
Everybody's going to lose their jobs because of AI. And, and I don't agree with that, that point, right? Um, I, I, I think that,
Marc Beckman: optimistic
Karen Fang Grant: Yeah,
Marc Beckman: growth
Karen Fang Grant: am, I am too. And I think what makes me optimistic is we've done a huge amount of work looking at, um, at the future. The person's job or series of activities. And on one hand, there's, there's a really interesting analysis that we did, um, based on ONET that, um, looked at, at, at an activity level and the degree to which those activities can be, um, [00:45:00] either, um, automated or augmented.
And, um, the numbers are staggering, you know, it's anywhere, you know, up to 40 to 60 percent of these activities can be automated or augmented.
Marc Beckman: Wow.
Karen Fang Grant: Take that augmented part of it, though. Don't ignore that augmented part of it. How can AI create, um, you know, kind of super versions of ourselves where we are still doing our jobs, but we're doing them so much better?
This is a very exciting possibility. But what it requires is that we don't apply technology in the way that we've always done it, which is Taking my job as fixed, taking my set of activities as fixed, and just applying technology to those activities to make me a little bit faster, a little bit cheaper, you know, this is, this is taking us down a downward spiral of eventually AI is getting good enough to be able to replace that kind of Activity if we look at it that way.
If we instead look at the processes within [00:46:00] companies and actually redesign them based on what is possible now with the combination of technologies and change the way we work, suddenly we get to a whole host of exciting possibilities. And we've done this actually, um, in area by area across an enterprise to, to redesign those, those jobs
Based on the technology and, and those jobs excitingly for, for workers are better jobs.
They're more exciting jobs. You know, the easy example being you're taking all of the sort of mundane, repetitive tasks. This is what, you know, even traditional AI does very well. You're taking those off my, off my desk and allowing me to focus on the things that I really want to do. I think marketing is a really good example of this, where if you look at what a brand manager has to do today, you know, the difficulty for the brand manager or the marketer today is a proliferation of channels and a, and a proliferation of consumers who all want to A message that is personal, an [00:47:00] experience that is personal to them.
And so, over time, we've seen marketers go more and more into that vein of having to step away from the creative, from the strategy, and
focus instead on project management.
Um, Now, if AI is taking on that project management, and we have actually been building tools and, and demonstrating entire workflows for a marketer that show how the AI can be my, my friend, my co pilot, my assistant, my agent along the way, across that entire workflow, suddenly, I don't have to manage all of these different projects because the AI is helping me do that.
I can go back to focusing on being what I want to be as a marketer, which is creative and a strategist.
Marc Beckman: That sounds really promising. And frankly speaking, the list of benefits that you laid out just moments ago is just super encouraging. I love all of that. But, What are the drawbacks of Artificial Intelligence as it relates specifically to the [00:48:00] consumer segment? If you were gonna say, if you're gonna name one like major drawback as it relates to Artificial Intelligence and consumer products, what would you say the drawback, that one big drawback is?
Karen Fang Grant: The that, we're currently at the point where human beings don't actually understand artificial intelligence. And therefore, and this, this manifests in a number of different ways. So, um, you know, when we kind of, AI used to be fairly simple, sort of rules based. It was using massive amounts of data, but we defined those rules.
Then we entered the world of deep learning where that's, that's where my understanding actually stops, right? Because it is creating answers out of that, that construct that I can't trace back. It's a little bit of a black box. And then you move ahead towards [00:49:00] AI being able to do creation through gen AI.
Off the back of what's happening in deep learning and you get to a very complicated world. You, you, you don't, well I don't anyway. Maybe there are people out there who have brains that work that way. I, I, you know, I, I think human beings inherently cannot understand what the AI is doing there. Um, though we have put, you know, we have built it ourselves and we've put our own construct around it.
This, um, This is a danger, um, and I don't like to speak about the danger a lot because like you, I'm, I'm an optimist, but I would say that there's a caution for human beings in terms of what we need to do in order for this to be a productive thing for society and a positive thing for society, which is we have to understand and continually learn about it.
Even though there are things I can't understand about that black box, there are things that I can change in my own behavior in society. Skills I can and can build. Um, there is this, um, [00:50:00] I've seen this amongst my own peers, this impetus to, you know, use chat GPT in the same way that we use Google. This is a fundamental mistake.
You know, there are things that Google does really well in terms of search and finding certain facts, and there are things that chat GPT does in terms of exploration and creation. And if you put a simple query into ChatGPT, you're not only under utilizing the benefits of that particular tool, you are also, in some cases, getting an incorrect answer, you know, at the fundamental.
And so, to me, that highlights, if you want to put it that way, that danger, or that imperative for human beings to really understand the differences between these different, you know, Um, formats and different types of AI and to use them mindfully in a way that, um, that, that they are intended to be used or for the use cases that are, that they're best used for.
That lack of understanding also [00:51:00] then extends to, um, the, the data underlying those models. So we mentioned before that, um, there's huge amount of bias that is inherent in the data that has, um, forms these foundation models. If we don't recognize that bias, it can steer us in really dangerous directions. Um, you know, you've seen what the, the kind of exercises where you put in a prompt, you know, show me a picture of a beautiful woman.
It's funny how all those beautiful women look the same, you know, and they're defined by a certain set of criteria, um, primarily Western criteria, um, because predominantly, you know, the vast, a large amount of the data that has gone in. And so, We have a responsibility as human beings to recognize that bias and start to mitigate it.
It's no different than, um, doctors talk, or, and, and life sciences companies talk a lot about the fact that many of the [00:52:00] studies have, that have been done on, um, certain treatments or, or certain drugs have been done on, um, white men of a certain age. Which means that those findings, which are really amazing scientific findings, may not translate appropriately to, you know, someone of a different age, someone of a different race, a woman of a different background.
The same thing goes for AI, you know, and, and as doctors have recognized this bias that is inherent, they are seeking to correct it by amplifying their, um, you know, their, their set of patients that they're, you know, examining, for example. In AI, you know, Um, we, we have a responsibility to look at the data that's going in and, um, at least for the cases that we can control, um, you know, rag that data, actually put in data to kind of off balance that bias that is inherent in the base data that is, is in it, um, or at, at the very least [00:53:00] recognize that bias and, and moderate our decisions as a result or put new rules on top of it.
Marc Beckman: Karen, you've been so, so generous with your knowledge and time today, I have one more request of you. Uh, each guest who joins my show participates in the same ending, I start the finish, it's, I start a sentence, it's kind of leading, and I incorporate the name of the show, Some Future Day, and then I ask my guest to finish the sentence, um, are you, are you willing to participate?
Karen Fang Grant: Absolutely.
Marc Beckman: Alright, so in some future day, the skin care industry will be radically altered through the use of artificial intelligence by,
Karen Fang Grant: By allowing me to get actually what I want and feel confident that it has given me what I want.
Marc Beckman: that would be an amazing thing because admittedly while you [00:54:00] said that, I'm confused about what I need for skin care, literally, so it's, that would be a good thing I think for everyone. Karen, is there anything else that you want to add today that we didn't cover?
Karen Fang Grant: No, I think, um, you know, it's been a fun conversation, I think, because to that point before, Mark, we're both optimists. Right?
Marc Beckman: Big time.
Karen Fang Grant: And, and I think there is so much to be optimistic about with the possibilities of, of technology in this world. Um, and, and going back to the human being and, and that statement that we are just discussing, um, I do think that it is a world of new possibilities where we can get more and more precise and, and more and more, um, positive that we will be able to, to, um, Move forward in a way that, that, that makes human beings happier.
That, that, um, addresses the uniqueness of human beings and allows us to, to achieve those, whatever it is that we want. Those, those [00:55:00] experiences, those goals, those objectives. Um, I see a very bright future.
Marc Beckman: I do too. I really do believe that artificial intelligence will create value for entire communities, for the whole world, as it relates to giving individuals more time to do what she or he may prefer to do casually with their phones. With their families, um, more value as it relates to economics in the society.
I think that we'll see enhanced healthcare, enhanced access to healthcare and food and beyond. So I'm excited to see what the future looks like and it's coming at us quickly, Karen, for sure.
Karen Fang Grant: Absolutely.
Marc Beckman: so much again for joining me on this awesome episode of Some Future Day.
Karen Fang Grant: Thank you, Mark.